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Discussion Starter #1
Hello and thank you for reading this!

I have a problem with a small fram tractor I recently purchased. It is a
Hinomoto C174 (suppose to be similar to Massy Ferguson)

O.K. the battery recently went dead so I purchased a new battery and after
installing it I am having some very wierd electrical problems.

When I turn the key on one position, the gauge lights come on but as soon as
I move the key to the second position to turn over the motor, all electrical
functions cut out and stay off for about 2-3 minutes. I have tried jumping
directly to the stater/silonoid and the same electrical/short problem
occurs. I have tested the battery to make sure it was fully charged and even
tried a different battery.

The only think I can think of is... I was trying to charge the old "dead"
battery and accidently hooked up my 12 volt charger to the system instead of
my 6 volt charger. Could this have blown something out and if so what part
would it have broken.


Thank you in advance for any help or suggestions!!!!

Peace,
Jim
 

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First off, welcome to Tractor Forum Jim! :friends: :cheers: You are our very 1st Hinomoto owner to post here! Great to have you aboard!

Have you cleaned and inspected ALL of the battery connections to include the ground cable from the battery to the frame? Check any other ground connections.

The other possibility could be a bad safety switch such as the safety neutral switch or pto safety switch if so equipped. Might also be a seat operator presence safety switch as well. Check all of these and try by passing them.

Another possibility could be the ignition switch itself.

Lastly, look at the starter, could be a bad starter or solenoid on the starter but I think this is unlikely.

I posted these suggestions in the order I would look at them and systematically eliminate the problem.

You may have damaged something in the charge system hooking up a 12 volt charger to a 6 volt system but I doubt it. If a 6 volt system, you most likely have a generator and not an alternator.

Be sure and get back to us and post what your results were. Hope we can help you get this figured out.
 

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Let me see if I follow you on what your saying. YOu installed new battery. YOu turn key to first click on the switch (normal run position) and all seems normal. Turn it further to the start (which should spring return to first position) and electrical system goes bananas.......

If this is the case it would have to be a problem in the start circuit somewhere as that is the only thing that is energized when in the full start position (momentarily anyhow) I would check the starter by by-passing the solenoid and hooking up a jumper cable directly to the terminal on the start itself, and see if the motor cranks over. If it does, I would then attach it to the solenoids battery cable connection and use a small jumper wire to engage the solenoid right on the solenoid itself (usually one small wire that feeds the solenoid coil itself. Best to eliminate any possible problems prior to the starter and solenoid by DISCONNECTING the battery cable that goes to the solenoid / starter BEFORE doing the above. If all fails then you have a stuck or shorted starter or bad solenoid. I have seen many a 6 volt starter get spun up by a 12 volt battery time after time, and usually if the voltage is not applied for long periods of time they can usually handle the higher voltage. Seriously doubt you screwed up anything in the charge system, but I am not familiar with this tractor, but would bet more on the start system or a relay that may be used in conjunction with the starter solenoid. My Ford has a relay that went out on me and it caused my ammeter idiot light to keep flickering on and off. And as Chief stated make sure all your connections are clean and corrosion free.

Sometimes if you have a low battery and try and crank a motor the starter can't really spin up and it sometimes wedges itself up into the starter bendix drive and flywheel, (happened on my truck one time as well as various other machines) and it took a severe rapping on the starter itself to break it free from the flywheel (removing it on the side of road was not an option without tool, but perserverance with a rock eventually paid off, along with a bunch of busted knuckles)

Keep the forum updated on what you find out.

PS Just because you have a new battery don;'t asume its good.........so make sure it has a full charge and is up to par. And not to sound like a smart a$$ but make sure positive is to positive and negative to negative, as things happen.
 

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If there is an electronic circuit board that controls some of the relays, it could have been damaged by the extra voltage.

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #5
An update on my tractor problem

First of all I want to thank all for their help. I have used many of the suggestions to get to where I currently sit. It is so nice of people to take time out of their busy schedule to help others in need! Now an update of my DARN tractor. Many things have changed especially the level of my frustration!!

O.K. my tractor is a Hinomoto C174 approx. a 1985 which I have now found is the same as an Allis Chalmers 5015 or a Deutz/Allis 5215. (I HAVE MANUALS ON THE WAY) I also have found that this tractor has a 12 volt system and not a 6 volt as I previously assumed.

I have been able to jump start the tractor by jumping directly from my car to the starter but if I run the jumper cables from my car to my tractor battery it will not jump start. I have check and cleaned the main battery cable terminals. I checked the battery cables and they look good however I have purchased new cables which I will install this weekend.

I have tried a new ignition switch which did not fix the problem.

I have found thru research that the recommended battery is 720 crank amps and 575 cold crank amps. However, I do not believe that this size battery will fit in the tractor as I have a U1 size battery area (small) currently with 360 crank amps and 300 cold crank amps. (Which is a stronger battery then what was in the tractor when I purchased it)

My turn signal lights which used to work no longer work. (The head lights do not work but never have worked) I have replaced all the fuses.

Please help, I am at a loss of what the problem could be. This is getting VERY frustrating!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
One more thing...

Thank you so much for the fast reply. I forgot to mention in my post. I purchased and installed a new starter & solenoid but this did not fix the problem or change the symptoms. Sorry for the omission!!

Regards,
Jim
 

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If the lights/guages go out for 2-3 min after trying to crank and then come back on by themselves it could be a circuit breaker in the system somewhere. A smaller battery should put the lights on, but may give you problems on starting. I would check the batt with a load tester, new one have been known to go bad. And also try to follow the harnesses to see if you might have a short somewhere. Double check the connections at the starter/ soleniod to make sure they are tight.

Wish I could come help, sound like a real puzzle.

Good luck!
 

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This is starting to sound more like you have an electrical short or something drawing down amperage from the electrical system. A crude way to check for this would be to try removing one of the battery cables from the battery and touch it to the battery terminal by hand. If you get a spark; that would indicate something is drawing juice. This could be any of a number of things causing such a problem. You will have to individually isolate everything in the electrical system to find it. Try starting with removeing the cable wire going to the alternator on the remote chance it may be shorted. It could be a relay or even a wire that the insulation has worn through and touching ground partially. This is what really sucks about finding electrical bugs. It is pain in the butt trial and error. Good luck and let us know how you are progressing.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Problem Solved

Hello, sorry for the delay in my follow-up post. I have fixed my tractor! First I want to thank everyone for their suggestions and comments. All helped me in some way or another. Some people suggested near about what the problem was but one person actually was EXACT as far as what was wrong. It was a suggestion that I cast aside as unrealistic.

Let me give a brief synopsis of my trouble shooting. Upon arriving at my farm, I first tried turning the key to find the tractor completely dead. I had fully charged the battery so I new this not to be the case so I got out my trusty voltage meter. Not really knowing how to use it I first tested the voltage on the battery. Once finding a setting that read 12 volts I set out to do some more testing. From the battery to the frame 12 volts with the key off but with the key in the on position, it read 2.34 volts. Didn¡¦t seem right, but I wasn¡¦t sure. So, I decided to concentrate on safety switches. After examination, the only one I found was the clutch safety switch which I bypassed but still no go. Next I decided to jump from the battery directly to the solenoid and neg. to frame. Wow, I got idiot lights and it started right up. Now we¡¦re getting some where. Next I used only the positive to the solenoid and disconnected the ground. Nope would not start. Next I disconnected the positive and left the neg. hookup to the frame and it started. Well, I had previously cleaned the terminals and sanded the frame were the neg. hooked up so I new now it had to be a bad cable which I replaced with a new battery cable I had brought with me. O.K. Time to start it up, but no it was completely dead. Hmm, after scratching my head I disconnected the neg. from where it was connected and ran it directly to the frame (It was bolted to a steel mount that was connected on one end to the frame and the other end to the radiator). Yup, the problem was solved by moving the ground to a different place on the frame. I don¡¦t understand because the old ground was working for months but that was definitely the problem.

Well I still have a problem with my lights but I will wait for some time before making my new post for helpļ

Thanks Again!!
Jim
 

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You fixed my tractor

I came across your post almost 11 years later after Googling the same problem with my tractor. And yes, it turned out to be the same problem with my tractor - A poor ground connection at the engine end of the ground cable. A little sand paper applied to the cable end, bolt, and engine frame and she fired right up.

A very belated "Thank You".

The power of the Internet!
 
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