[itzbinnice]

OK Jodyand I will be the first, but it's not an easy one, so folks please help me out here and give it your best shot.
Have posted the problem on another board, many responses but no solutions. I will attempt to state all the facts as best I can and only hope it's clear enough.

The unit is a 1985 Snapper 28” RER with an 8 hp engine that was replaced last fall.
I did all the work and the following parts were also replaced at that time:
Drive belt, engine disc, yoke assembly with all nylon washers, rubber drive disk with plastic slip disc, brake drum and brake assembly.

Here are the symptoms: THE UNIT WILL NOT ROLL, the wheels are locked.

Unit was working fine, did not hit anything, stopped to empty bags, left unit in neutral, replaced bags, put unit in gear and would not move in any forward gear, reverse does work.
Shut down engine, attempted to roll but wheels locked, had to start engine, put in reverse and drive into tool shed backwards.
Stood the unit on end and discovered wheels would never go in same direction, turn one the other always goes in opposite direction. If you hold one and turn the other it still does the same thing.
It is not in the clutch assembly or yoke, removed all those parts and the wheels would always respond the same. I noticed if I turned the disc holding the rubber drive wheel by hand, the wheels would turn in the same direction, if I reversed the direction of the disc the wheels responded by both turning in the opposite, but same direction, this is how it should be and eliminates the possibility of the chain being broke inside the differential.

Another test I performed was with unit standing on end, and either in neutral or roll position,
The wheels always go in opposite directions when either side is spun. The shift linkage is working correctly stopping at all the correct positions from reverse to 5th gear in relation to it’s contact point on the engine disk.
What baffles me is that by turning the clutch disk by hand I am able to have the wheels turn in the same direction.

In my opinion the problem lies in one of the two gear cases, but which one, and what could be the defective part? Messy and hard job for certain, if anybody could give me some direction it would genuinely be appreciated.

 

[tisenberg]

Sorry to butt in, but I just want to pose another question on this. If you can turn things by hand, could it be that the linkage is not engaging all the way? I think that is what you are saying as it relates to the gear box(s), but that's what it sounds like to me.

With all the tests you did, the only final thing I would do is to jack up the rear about an half an inch off the ground, turn it on, put it in gear and see if the wheels move at all. It sounds like you lost forward gears completely either due to linkage adjustments (internally or not) or a gear is just wacked.

Just my two-un-certified-cents.

 

[itzbinnice]

Tisenberg,
No apologies please, grateful for your suggestion.
I do not want to jack it up and try that test in fear that further damage may happen under engine power.

I had one fellow report to me that he went out and stood his unit up. When he turned one wheel, the other would turn in the opposite direction as mine does. But when he holds one wheel tight and spins the other, the wheel he is spinning will turn in either direction freeely, mine won't do that.

 

[slipshod]

will not roll

If the driveline is completly connected and both wheels are off the ground if you turn one wheel the other should turn in the opposite direction,because of the differential.If the machine is in neutral can it be pushed forward?If it can this should eliminate the differential as the problem.

 

[jodyand]

Brake

The little brake pad that rides in the rubber disk isnt hung up or come lose and is jaming it from turning. And you have a chain in the small case it may have enough slop that when you have it stood up the slack falls to the bottom and it works. Then when you set it back down the slack falls between the two gears and jams. And when you put it in reverse the slack goes to the bottom of the pan and the tenion is on top. So what im trying to say is going forward the chain tenion would be on the bottom and the slack would be on top and vise versa going in reverse. This is hard to answer without looking at it. Maybe amicks will know more being a dealer maybe he run across this before. Mine went 30 years before i replace the transmission and it was still working it just had so much slop and had lost its speed.
Jody

:usa:

 

[jodyand]

Welcome

And by the way itzbinnice welcome to tractorforum.:clap: And we will find the problem if i have to take one apart and see what could be causing it.:smiles:
Jody:usa:

 

[itzbinnice]

You guys are the best!

Slipshod,
No I cannot push the mower in neutral or roll position when placed on it's wheels.
Even rempved the whole yoke assembly and rubber drive wheel and the transfer case clutch wheel the rubber disc wheel is fastened to. Only way to move this thing is place a handtruck underneath the back and lift it a bit and push it around that way.

Jodyand
Thought of the brake you speak of also, I had renoved that also thinking that was the culprit but not to be.

Folks I think the key here is how can I make the wheels turn in the same direction while I have it standing upright.
If I can never (as is the case) get the wheels to turn in the same direction while it is upright, it stands to reason it will never roll freely when two wheels constantly oppose one another.

Others have told me when they lift their unit up and by holding one wheel, they are able to turn the other wheel in whatever direction they want, I am never able to do this.

Edited
P.S. Amicks is the one who guided me to this forum.

 

[jodyand]

itzbinnice
When you first got on it and tried to go did it make any noise like squealing or smell of burning rubber or smoke. Want to know if the rubber disk was touching the disk on the motor.
Jody:usa:

 

[itzbinnice]

Jodyand
No everything was normal, no noises, no smells, cut the grass as it always did, stopped it with engine running in neutral, then just wouldn't go forward or roll anymore.

Rubber disc and engine drive disc still in perfect condition.

 

[jodyand]

Disk

So when its in a gear the rubber disk is touching the alum disk?Ok when you turn the tire by hand does the rubber disk turn at all. Or when you turn the rubber disk does it turn easly like you can put one finger and turn it.
Jody:usa:

 

[amicks]

itzbinnice, After reading your posts and emails, I would like to eliminate the primary chain case(the one that the clutch disc is on)because of the ability to move the wheels and have the disc spin. Now lets start inside the differential ( on page 20 of the snapper IPL that you downloaded) look at #9 which is the hex tube which is the first place power goes into the diff. On the left side it has a sprocket that has a chain (#12) that turns the (#13) 34 tooth sprocket and on this sprocket there is a 11 tooth gear (#11) that turns the 63 tooth gear (#22 in your case uses the 21158 part #) This large gear spins freely on the axle (#23) . The gear on the axle is connected to the large gear by the four (#7)12 tooth pinion gears. Problems we see are the (#2A) bushing that goes in the fender (#21) will wear and cause a lot of slop in the axle and possibly letting the main 63 tooth Diff gear rub the Transmission case(#19) . I know that you said you have a 4 or 5 series but the same gears are shown in the breakdown that Snapper used in the early 60's up to even today. If you want to remove the diff assy and send it to me, I'll fix it or you can buy the complete unit new for less than $ 200.00. I can check the cost if you want. I have all the parts for the diff in stock. By the way when you rotate one wheel the other should go the other direction and if you turn the disc by hand both wheels normally turn the same.

 

[itzbinnice]

Tony, (Amrick)

I performed one final test tonight, results as follows:
Put shifter in neutral, made ceratin rubber disc in center of engine disk and was spinning freely, no contact.
Lowered unit on wheels, then lifted one side ever so slightly to have wheel not making ground contact. I then pushed the unit forward and it rolled, however the wheel that was off the ground a bit was turning in the opposite direction.
Did the same test to the other wheel, with the same results.

You really know your stuff, I followed all your instructions in the schematic and see the bushing 2A (manual calls it bearing).
I then went back out to the unit and discovered the wheel on the right fender is sloppy, the left wheel is nice and tight with no play.

Now what to do. When you say to send you the differential assembly and you can fix it. Do you mean remove the tires, unbolt the two fenders, and send that entire assembly that contains both differential boxes?

You say a new unit goes for about 200.00, is that the entire assembly as described above or only the differential that bolts to the right fender.
I know it's impossible to determine a repair cost without inspecting the unit but I would like to see if a repair is really warranted or I should just sell the unit for parts.

With over 700.00 invested in a 18 year old unit I am very hesitant to invest much more. Quite frankly I really am not fond of the machine solely for it's poor 28" turning radius, which is a handicap for my property layout.

I have another option, perhaps just buy another used differential assembly, but that's a gamble also, since I won't know what I'd be getting.

Please let me know your thoughts on the situation.

 

[amicks]

itzbinnice, its been nice, a good handle. The price is for the diff assy that includes the left fender ( when standing up on it's rear ) as well the complete axle assy. If you remove the ( again standing up) right wheel and the hub that is held on by a tapered bolt and nut, take a flat file and remove any burrs caused by the tapered bolt. Next remove the left wheel and take all the bolts out that hold the fender on. The diff assy will pull completely out of the center primary drive. OK there are washers that are inside of the boots that will come off when doing this ( no problem ) and by removing the clamps on the longest boot close to the right wheel you will be able to see and remove them. Do you have a good Snapper dealer close??? If not, we sure will fix it for you. As far as what you have in the machine and it's worth is really up to you. Tony

 

[itzbinnice]

Tony,
You should have been a teacher, you do a superb job of explaining things that even mentally challenged individuals such as myself, can understand.

Thanks for the handle comment, I tried to use itsbeennice many years ago, it was taken, so I had to improvise, thus itzbinnice.

Sounds pretty east to remove the assembly.
Have several Snapper dealers in the area, don't know how good or honest they are, only bought parts from them and did the work myself. This however, either may be more than I should attempt to tackle. Sometimes it's best to let knowledgeable people handle such things, turns out cheaper and less aggravation in the long run.

I would never bring my botched attempt at fixing something to someone and say, hey pal you fix it now.

Here's what I'll do, this weekend I'll pull thee differential from the machine, make a few calls inquiring about the repair to local dealers, if not satisfied with what I hear I'll send it to you.

The shipping costs to and from North Carolina still might be cheaper than having a dishonest person do the work for me. I trust you for two reasons, you unselfishly spend your time helping others, and you’re from the South.

Sorry to say to many New Yorkers have less than good intentions, we have a lot to learn from you folks. My nephew moved to NC about 15 years ago and he never wants to come back.

I’ll email you after I decide what to do, thanks for all your help.

 

[itzbinnice]

Below is Email I sent to Tony at Amicks Superstore.
Just wanted to keep everybody updated.

Tony,
I pulled the axle, and it's almost a certainty that problem lies in the differential mounted on the left fender. Extremely sloppy with a great deal of play. Your directions were outstanding for pulling the unit, it took me no time at all. However, the unit is far heavier than I thought it would be and may not be cost effective to pay for shipping to you round trip. I will bring it to work tomorrow (Mon 10/28), weigh it, and see what the shipping cost will be UPS ground. We get a discount at work for being a business account. I intend to ship the main differential with it so you can inspect and rule that out as being the cause.

In addition I will call you at Amicks tomorrow to personally thank you for your help, and discuss what I will be doing.

 

[jodyand]

itzbinnice

I hope amick helped you out. Did you find the problem and get it fixed.
Jody

 

[itzbinnice]

Jodyand,
As I write the differential is on a UPS truck on it's way to Amicks.
Scheduled delivery is tomorrow (Wednesday), but I think it will arrive Thursday.
Sent it out from New York on Monday UPS ground. UPS has a knack for rescheduling, two days seems a bit fast.

Tony at Amicks is a real gentleman and I have the utmost confidence in the repair. I find out my nephew lives in a nearby town from Amicks.

I'm not afraid to fix anything, I think if I spent enough time on it I could fix it, but there is no substitute for knowledge, and sometimes you're better off having a pro fix it.

Never had any experience with computers but made my mind up I would build my own. I ordered parts on the net from all over the country, and built my Frankenstein machine. He's a beauty and it was very easy to do. I have more pride in this machine then anything I could have bought, and best of all, I know it inside out.

As soon as I get an update from Tony at Amicks I will post.
That old Snapper (1985) might still be able to chew some leaves up this fall.

 

[jodyand]

He is a good man

itzbinnice
Glad to hear hes taking care of you he knows his stuff and has been in business for a long time.:smiles: I hope you stick around after you Snapper gets fix and chat with all of us and post you questions or just telling a joke glad to have you as a member.:friends:
Jody

 

[itzbinnice]

Jodyand,
Thank you, I'm honored to be a member.
And yes, I'll stick around, whether the Snapper gets fixed or not.
Jokes you say, hmm I love jokes, my wife always says I am one,
never could figure what she means by that. :winky:

 

[itzbinnice]

The problem has been solved by the good folks at Amicks Superstore, in Asheboro North Carolina. It had several problems that were all corrected. The axle bearing and axle were worn, as was the bushing in the hex shaft. But this was not the reason it would not roll. That problem was the needle cage bearings in the main case were shot. I am so glad I sent Amicks the main transfer case in addition to the transfer case mounted on the fender. Had I not sent it, the problem would not have been corrected.

I can not give enough praise in how Amicks conducts its business, they are experts in what they do, and have the utmost pride in what they do. They treated my equipment just as they would their own. The transfer cases were returned in like new condition and well packed.

If you live in the South, and are nearby Asheboro, I would definitely recommend Amicks Superstore for you outdoor power equipment, you won't be disappointed. My sincerest thanks and gratitude to Tony for giving my Snapper a second life, as well as making my chores a bit easier.