[Ingersoll444]

Well, got the mowerdeck on my 224 yesterday and was getting some mowing done. After a time the motor would just shut off, like someone was turning the key off. Seems to be getting gas, becouse when it dies from running out of gas it never backfires, this time it was.

What I did was when it stopped, I popped open the hood to check everything out, and all looked good. Shut the hood, turned the key, and it fired right up. I mowed a bit more, maybe 10-15 min, and it shut off agean. Checked it all out agean and all looked good, and fired right up. Did this a few time, and as it died I tryed diferent things. Found out when it dies, it looses ALL power. Will not crank eather. and in a few seconds all is fine. I checked all the wires and they LOOK fine. Also it was hot yesterday, and it also seemd to start faster after I opened the hood, as opposed to when I left the hood closed.

OK, so I am guessing it's heat related. At first I thought it was the coil, but then I found it would not crank eather, so that shot that. Bolth the keyswitch, and the starter seloniod were replaced about two years ago, but I guess they could be bad agean. Any one hears of eather of those being heat senstive? Anything I am missing?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Ingersoll444]

OK, it is getting worse. Get about 5 min of running time, then it shuts off, and will not restart for about 15-20min.

I replace the key switch with a old one, that I thought was still good, and same problem. Also replaced a few quesanable wires with new, and no improvement.

Realy got me baffled. I have the wire diagram, and it shows the starter, and ing circit totaly serpret except for the key switch. When it shuts off, it just dies, AND no crank. It WILL crank if I jump the two big selonid terms, but will not fire. his has realy got me stumped.

I also checked battery voltege when it died, to see if maybe there was a short in the battery when it gets hot, but it was right around 13v. This has me stumpped BIGTIME.

Attached is the wire diagram, take a look to see if I am missing anything . I had to mow about an acre with a push mower today, and I am NOT a happy camper

 

[Ingersoll444]

sorry forgot the attachment

 

[jodyand]

Maybe the coil is bad and when it gets hot it stops working.

 

[Ingersoll444]

I thought that also Jody, but it does not crank eather. Unless I am wrong, a bad coil shoud not effect cranking.


This has realy got me baffled.

Now see if I have this right............

When it dies, I have power at the battery, I have power at the battery termail on the key switch. So power is getting there.

The starting wire out of the key switch is a grounding wire. All the interlocks are jumpped out also, so I know they are not it.

I can get the motor to crank by jumping the big terms on the seloniod. But no ing.

Ok, See if you follow me...... If I jump power to the ING wire off of the key switch, and jump the two big terms on the selonid and it cranks, and runs it HAS to be the key switch right???? Just seems strange that a old switch that did work, has the SAME problem as the one I took out.

 

[jodyand]

Do you have a wire grounding out on the frame somewhere maybe or a broke wire somewhere in the harness.

 

[memmurphy]

Does your ammeter show any indication? Maybe a bolt is loose somewhere that ties the grounds to the chassis. Just for giggles you might jumper the ammeter and sub the fuse. If the power to the switch feed comes from a seperate terminal on the solenoid, the solenoid could be the problem. If not, the "Y" in the power cable maybe. I'm thinking the circuit may have "fixed" itself by the time you measured the voltage on the switch, or may be dropping under load. You may just have to run it till it dies completely and will no longer start after a cool down period. Worse case, something could be burning the switches out, but the fuse should go first.

Mark

 

[Ingersoll444]

The Ammeater is already jumped. It gave me fits two years ago with a starter problem. Ammeater went bad, and killed all power. Jumpped it till I can take the oil tank out and replace it.

The power wire to the switch come right from the bat side of the seloid and is fused, and only about 5 inches long. No breaks, good shape.

 

[Neil_nassau]

Good Morning,
Ive read and reread your posts. If you're losing the ignition and the start circuit,that certainly points to something in the safety circuits even though you have modified them. Something is shutting down both ,and they usually ARE seperate circuits until you get to the key switch. You can check it for function by a volt-ohm set for continuity and walk the switch thru each position. Shake it while you do to see if anythings "loose " inside. Broken pieces of a internal part can drive you nuts.
Other than that........I suggest you go back and check your safety circuit closely. jumpered and defeated safety circuits are a regular
electrical problem in our shop.
Electrical diagnostics takes time and patience.
Im going back to check your wiring diagram again.
Regards,

 

[Neil_nassau]

Safety circuit on this machine is pretty basic since its a battery ignition.Notice that for the "Solenoid" to get ground,this is a 'harness grounded solenoid", the switches must be in their neutral positions ( or jumpered as you have stated). Check for a good ground for the solenoid.
The negative on the orange wire is a liitle misleading since it brings cuurent to the key switch for distribution to the "start" and "ignition" during starting ........and returns amps to the battery during the "run" process. Thats why the regulator output is on the same lug of the keyswitch as the 'ignition" (battery ignition) circuit.
Something is disturbing the whole process.......I bet you'll find a bad wire. Use a volt-ohm set for continuity ,(best if its a meter with a tone for cont) use alligator clips on each wire end and shake the wire up and down its length. We've found wires bad inside the insulation before.
Good Luck.

 

[Ingersoll444]

The whole safty circit is totaly disabled. I ran a short wire right to ground from the solenoid.


Strange... I could think of a bunch of ways that the ing would lose power, but not that AND the starting circet. Well heading out to try to find the bug........wish me luck

 

[Live Oak]

Sounds like you have run the electrical rabbit in the hole. The next time it dies on you; immediately check to see if you have a spark and are getting fuel. If those check out OK; I hate to suggest this but you may have an exhaust valve which is either sticking in the open position when the engine warms up or may be possibley bent. No compression = no burn. This would account for the sudden engine stoppage after a short time and starting up just fine after it cools off. My father had a Kohler on a Cub that would the same thing except emit a loud pow! or pop from the engine and die. Would not restart until it cooled off. It was a stuck valve. My brother inlaw had a similar issue with his Cub and was frequently having to replace the coil. I believe it ended up being some how related to a fault ground t the system and a bad voltage regualtor. Hope this gets you on the right track.

 

[Argee]

Almost sounds like a vapor lock!!The no cranking part is what confuses me.

 

[Neil_nassau]

Originally posted by Ingersoll444
The whole safty circit is totaly disabled. I ran a short wire right to ground from the solenoid.


Strange... I could think of a bunch of ways that the ing would lose power, but not that AND the starting circet. Well heading out to try to find the bug........wish me luck

If I read you correctly when it dies ........you turn the key and the engine won't turn over,correct? Does the solenoid "click " at all?
Once this engine is running (according to your wiring diagram) the 12 volts produced from the alternator supplies the voltage to the ignition coil. NO spark,no turn over = something on the battery side/solenoid side. ground or a wire related.check your jumper around the amp meter.

 

[Ingersoll444]

yup will not turn over. No clicking eather.

The amp meter jump was an easy one. A wire came out of the hot sice of the solenoid,[what always has power, eaven when it dies] went to the amp gage, then to the key. I ran a short, fused wire derect to the key. New wire, only anout 4"long.


Now digging around I see some of the connections down byt the voltage reg, and kinda yucky. I figured that could cause my no ING problem, but the cranking problem?? In this system, the cranking cercit looks totaly serpret from the ing.

Also Something that I thought of yesterday wile diaging, and mowing...... Maybe they are two sepret problems. Maybe I have a hot cranking problem, but only notice it when the motor dies from loseing ing. I will rewire the reg connections, then give it a test. After a bit of hot mowing, when I would think it is getting ready to die, I will shut it off, and try to crank it.


Got to love these types of problems huh

 

[Ingersoll444]

BTW yesterday I bypassed everything that was not needed to run the tractor. Lighting circit, hour meter, everything. Had the hot term to the key, the starter ground circt to the seloniod, and the ing/volt reg wire, thats it. Still died.

 

[Ingersoll444]

Originally posted by Chief
Sounds like you have run the electrical rabbit in the hole. The next time it dies on you; immediately check to see if you have a spark and are getting fuel. If those check out OK; I hate to suggest this but you may have an exhaust valve which is either sticking in the open position when the engine warms up or may be possibley bent. No compression = no burn. This would account for the sudden engine stoppage after a short time and starting up just fine after it cools off. My father had a Kohler on a Cub that would the same thing except emit a loud pow! or pop from the engine and die. Would not restart until it cooled off. It was a stuck valve. My brother inlaw had a similar issue with his Cub and was frequently having to replace the coil. I believe it ended up being some how related to a fault ground t the system and a bad voltage regualtor. Hope this gets you on the right track.

nope no spark when it dies. No cranking eather.

 

[Neil_nassau]

When you're in the nostart/no ignition state........you say you have 12 volts to the solenoid. Is the solenoid "closing" the battery circuit? Do you have 12 volts at the starter? The solenoid is just a switch,controlled by another switch.
Also,since this is battery ignition (points /condenser/coil)....if charge system or battery is not up to par,engine will run off the battery until it runs it down.

 

[Ingersoll444]

AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Well still doing it.

I rewire all the bad connections in the reg circit.[no idea how it was charging. Wires REAL bad!!] went out for a test mow.........well 10 min later it dies.

Installed a new key switch, died........

AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Only thing I can think of is it HAS to be more then one problem. I see nothing else that controls bolth the starting, and ing circits.


Well now I am doing a peice by peice swap out of parts to see what happands. First is the condencer. I put new points in a year or so ago, but never replaced the condencer, so I will do that first. Then if still no go, I will check point adjustment, then replace the coil, etc etc.[nice to have another tractor with the same motor in it, to swap parts off of ]

MAN this is driving me crazy. The lawn is like 6-8 in long, and I am SICK of using a push mower

 

[Argee]

Originally posted by Ingersoll444
AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Well still doing it.

I rewire all the bad connections in the reg circit.[no idea how it was charging. Wires REAL bad!!] went out for a test mow.........well 10 min later it dies.

Installed a new key switch, died........

AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Only thing I can think of is it HAS to be more then one problem. I see nothing else that controls bolth the starting, and ing circits.


Well now I am doing a peice by peice swap out of parts to see what happands. First is the condencer. I put new points in a year or so ago, but never replaced the condencer, so I will do that first. Then if still no go, I will check point adjustment, then replace the coil, etc etc.[nice to have another tractor with the same motor in it, to swap parts off of ]

MAN this is driving me crazy. The lawn is like 6-8 in long, and I am SICK of using a push mower

Good minds think alike...I've been giving this some thought and the condenser popped into my head this morning....keep us posted