[fuddy1952]

I wouldn't worry about a little oily...while checking resistance check coil & each plug wire one at a time, making sure they're ok, pull-check-replace. That's making sure you're keeping firing order as it's supposed to be.

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[Donttouchthat]

I'm leaning towards spark now.
Fuel pump video seems sufficient fuel.
As long as float is OK and shutting off properly I wouldn't mess with it, adjustments, etc.
If it didn't fire off with starting fluid or carburetor cleaner I'd focus on spark.
No need pulling distributor...it was running before.
Keep battery charger on it. (Should be around 12.7v charger off.).
Did you replace points & condenser with quality ones? Set gap correctly.
Here's an easy spark check: (Note: you don't want key on, points closed more than a few seconds...it burns points up). You'll need a small insulated stick, wood,plastic & Multimeter.
I assume it's 12v, negative ground.
Key off position. Do NOT crank...
1) meter black neg. lead on good ground.
2) points closed
3) key on...measure both +&-- on coil...should be around 9v + side, 0v -- (distributor) side.
4) key off
5) pull center lead off of distributor that goes to coil.
6) connect spark plug to end, plug laying on ground. So coil tower high voltage wire to spark plug on it's side grounded.
7) key on...open points with stick. Plug should fire. Each time you release, points close, open the plug should spark (strong blue spark....pop-pop-pop!
Now everything back together, last test meter + red lead to coil +. Points closed, key on. What's the voltage (should be about 9v)...crank on it. That should be same as battery + voltage while cranking.
For proper spark you need good points & condenser, good coil, proper power going to coil +, good plugs & plug wires.
With key off, Multimeter on resistance Rx1 scale you should have close to zero ohms with points closed from ground to coil -- side.





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Thanks but this is over my head right now. I was about to just pop the top of the distributor when I got your message. So OK to pop the top and inspect points (I've never done this before) I have to google condenser. I have not replaced anything yet, just spark plugs. So I'll move forward on popping the top and inspect. I'll just take my meter to read continuity for each wire to inspect them. Try and make sense of points. I don't have any (other than a new rotor) parts yet if I need new things.

 

[Donttouchthat]

I'll read what you wrote...but if it was running fine, pulling distributor there's no purpose and you'll most likely get timing off...no purpose pulling it.

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When you say "pulling it" do you mean popping the top off? I will screw up the timing if I pop off the top and inspect the points and rotor? I am trying to solve the tractor not starting and seems like a weak spark, but what do I know? You did ask me if I inspected the points. by doing so (which I havent) I'll screw up the timing? I'm confused

 

[fuddy1952]

When you say "pulling it" do you mean popping the top off? I will screw up the timing if I pop off the top and inspect the points and rotor? I am trying to solve the tractor not starting and seems like a weak spark, but what do I know? You did ask me if I inspected the points. by doing so (which I havent) I'll screw up the timing? I'm confused

PM sent...

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[fuddy1952]

When you say "pulling it" do you mean popping the top off? I will screw up the timing if I pop off the top and inspect the points and rotor? I am trying to solve the tractor not starting and seems like a weak spark, but what do I know? You did ask me if I inspected the points. by doing so (which I havent) I'll screw up the timing? I'm confused

Pull means remove distributor which you don't want to do. Call me...

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[Donttouchthat]

Pull means remove distributor which you don't want to do. Call me...

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[Donttouchthat]

I wouldn't worry about a little oily...while checking resistance check coil & each plug wire one at a time, making sure they're ok, pull-check-replace. That's making sure you're keeping firing order as it's supposed to be.

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Thanks again for your time yesterday. I ended up ordering from Steiner (express delivery $$$) new set of points, condenser, rotor that looks identical to mine. And also a new 12v coil. Doing some further meter testing I see that my coil is reading about 3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary. From what I can tell those #'s sound fine. But it did have some oil in the distributor lead wire socket. Then put the condenser on the meter neg on the wire and pos on the casing. I got a reading that continually increased. I saw on YT that that might indicate it's good. Now I'm a bit worried that these are good. The rotor looked in decent shape. I did look more closely at the points and see some corrosion on each mating part. Could this cause a problem? I'm temped to file/sand off to a fresh surface and re-install and see if tractor has improvement in starting. Do you think it's worth the time or just wait for my new parts?

Additionally I see the specs on the new coil I'm getting is rated a bit lower than mine at 3.1/9.6K.Should that still be OK for my tractor? Thanks!

 

[FredM]

Thanks again for your time yesterday. I ended up ordering from Steiner (express delivery $$$) new set of points, condenser, rotor that looks identical to mine. And also a new 12v coil. Doing some further meter testing I see that my coil is reading about 3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary. From what I can tell those #'s sound fine. But it did have some oil in the distributor lead wire socket. Then put the condenser on the meter neg on the wire and pos on the casing. I got a reading that continually increased. I saw on YT that that might indicate it's good. Now I'm a bit worried that these are good. The rotor looked in decent shape. I did look more closely at the points and see some corrosion on each mating part. Could this cause a problem? I'm temped to file/sand off to a fresh surface and re-install and see if tractor has improvement in starting. Do you think it's worth the time or just wait for my new parts?

Additionally I see the specs on the new coil I'm getting is rated a bit lower than mine at 3.1/9.6K.Should that still be OK for my tractor? Thanks! View attachment 80282

No wonder the engine wouldn't start, thats the problem right there, see if you can clean up both contacts and give her a go, you will be able to file the faces, but the movable contact is fairly had it, you will need to replace the contact set and condenser.

 

[Donttouchthat]

No wonder the engine wouldn't start, thats the problem right there, see if you can clean up both contacts and give her a go, you will be able to file the faces, but the movable contact is fairly had it, you will need to replace the contact set and condenser.

Good to know. So the spark might be weakened due to the compromised contacts. We'll see I might just wait till the new parts come in depending on available time. Thanks

 

[fuddy1952]

I don't think I've ever seen points that bad! The depression on the ground side also means condenser is bad. If you can wait, I would.
The coil winding ratio is 100:1, so ("3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary") that means 3.5 ohms primary is about right, secondary would measure in the thousands of ohms. From + or -- to center tower 5K (5,000) ohms or so is more normal.
It gets confusing since you're measuring resistance not impedance.
I'm amazed it ran at all.
Me... I'd wait for new parts if you can. While waiting I'd trace that + wire back, one you disconnected from coil + side. See if it goes to a ballast resistor (some things use a ballast wire). If it doesn't have one (wire simply goes to 12v power with key on) then be SURE you get a new coil with internal ballast. Otherwise you'll fry your new points.

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[Donttouchthat]

I don't think I've ever seen points that bad! The depression on the ground side also means condenser is bad. If you can wait, I would.
The coil winding ratio is 100:1, so ("3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary") that means 3.5 ohms primary is about right, secondary would measure in the thousands of ohms. From + or -- to center tower 5K (5,000) ohms or so is more normal.
It gets confusing since you're measuring resistance not impedance.
I'm amazed it ran at all.
Me... I'd wait for new parts if you can. While waiting I'd trace that + wire back, one you disconnected from coil + side. See if it goes to a ballast resistor (some things use a ballast wire). If it doesn't have one (wire simply goes to 12v power with key on) then be SURE you get a new coil with internal ballast. Otherwise you'll fry your new points.

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Maybe there is a worst set of points award. No resistors. The new coil states "Internally Resisted" so I hope that is the same as Internal Ballast On average, does it take a lot of hitting the starter to have one of the distributor 4 square corner lobes to align with points to be able to set the gap? Thanks!

 

[fuddy1952]

Maybe there is a worst set of points award. No resistors. The new coil states "Internally Resisted" so I hope that is the same as Internal Ballast On average, does it take a lot of hitting the starter to have one of the distributor 4 square corner lobes to align with points to be able to set the gap? Thanks!

Sounds great. New points, condenser, coil (yes...it's the correct one)...you're all set.
Here's what I'd try (if you can do it carefully):
1) battery disconnected
2) all 4 spark plugs out
You should be able to turn motor over easily by hand. Different ways to do it if you have room...a strap wrench around crankshaft pulley, socket & ratchet inside pulley on center nut.
If you're unable turning motor over by hand leave plugs out...install condenser & points. Then "bump" starter...crank a split second. A helper would be best while you watch points.
Stop when points rubbing block is on peak of a distributor lobe. Set gap.

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[Donttouchthat]

Sounds great. New points, condenser, coil (yes...it's the correct one)...you're all set.
Here's what I'd try (if you can do it carefully):
1) battery disconnected
2) all 4 spark plugs out
You should be able to turn motor over easily by hand. Different ways to do it if you have room...a strap wrench around crankshaft pulley, socket & ratchet inside pulley on center nut.
If you're unable turning motor over by hand leave plugs out...install condenser & points. Then "bump" starter...crank a split second. A helper would be best while you watch points.
Stop when points rubbing block is on peak of a distributor lobe. Set gap.

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Good. There is a large shaft coming out of that lower pulley. Front of shaft inaccessible and probably behind front end weights. But if that shaft turns the crankcase then I probably can get a pipe wrench around (see white arrow) it and turn it. Thanks!

 

[Donttouchthat]

LOL. This is something I was always curious about. And now with some new engine learning going on and all. My exhaust manifold has always had this indentation/HOLE in it towards the top. Whereas in my manual it shows a picture with a solid section and some casted #'s. Does my manifold have a hole in it? It almost appears to be molded that way. But now, knowing more than I did a couple of weeks ago. Isn't this where the fuel/air mix gets sucked out of my carburetor then it gets distributed to each of the 4 cylinders? If this hole is not intended, couldn't this put a wrench, so to speak, in the whole fuel/air thing? My engine would always want to lose power when I would greatly increase the accelerator. How exactly does this manifold design supposed to function? Upper section for fuel/air distribution and side/lower for exhaust? Thanks!

 

[FredM]

Use the pipe wrench as a last resort, you will damage the hydraulic pump drive shaft, there are about 5 studs that hold the drive plate to the front pulley, use a tyre lever or large screw driver between the each stud and the drive hub and lever downwards, there should be a timing pointer on the other side and a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, rotate the engine until the marks line up, this will have both #1 and #4 pistons at top dead center, set the contacts at just opening, we used a cigarette paper to feel the contacts opening.

The timing pointer on the timing case may have a few graduation marks, if so, you will need to rotate the pulley until the pulley mark aligns with the last mark on the timing pointer, this will give you top dead center for setting the contacts, and all of the rotation of the crankshaft pulley is done in a clockwise manner.

And then again, you may have the timing marks on the flywheel, in that case you may have to remove the starter to locate these or there may be a cover on the flywheel housing that you can shift to expose the markings.

So with that, this cowboy will leave you with that info and will ride off into the sunset.

 

[FredM]

LOL. This is something I was always curious about. And now with some new engine learning going on and all. My exhaust manifold has always had this indentation/HOLE in it towards the top. Whereas in my manual it shows a picture with a solid section and some casted #'s. Does my manifold have a hole in it? It almost appears to be molded that way. But now, knowing more than I did a couple of weeks ago. Isn't this where the fuel/air mix gets sucked out of my carburetor then it gets distributed to each of the 4 cylinders? If this hole is not intended, couldn't this put a wrench, so to speak, in the whole fuel/air thing? My engine would always want to lose power when I would greatly increase the accelerator. How exactly does this manifold design supposed to function? Upper section for fuel/air distribution and side/lower for exhaust? Thanks! View attachment 80292 View attachment 80293 View attachment 80294

I thought I had better ride back and comment on your last photo of the manifold, if that is a hole where I have that blue pointer aimed at, then you have big trouble, that part of the exhaust manifold has had it, another reason your engine will be playing up with the exhaust gas heating the inlet manifold, (you can see the black soot mark going up the inlet manifold towards the carby and to the right in the photo) this will cause fuel evaporation and make the engine lose power as you commented on in a previous post.

I think you should begin to look for a replacement manifold, you may be able to get the old one repaired, you may be able to do a temporary repair with exhaust manifold gunk, but I can see a repair of the left hand end and the actual exhaust manifold section doesn't look that great overall, sorry for the bad news, something you didn't need to hear right now.

Yes you are correct with your question, the upper section is the inlet manifold where the engine draws in the fuel/air mixture to the cylinders, and the lower manifold is for the exhaust gases to leave the cylinders and be exhausted safely .

Something else to consider with that opening in the exhaust manifold, should the carby leak fuel there with the engine running, then you will have a fire that you most likely will not see if you are using the backhoe until it is too late to fight it, just a thought for you.

 

[Donttouchthat]

View attachment 80295

Use the pipe wrench as a last resort, you will damage the hydraulic pump drive shaft, there are about 5 studs that hold the drive plate to the front pulley, use a tyre lever or large screw driver between the each stud and the drive hub and lever downwards, there should be a timing pointer on the other side and a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, rotate the engine until the marks line up, this will have both #1 and #4 pistons at top dead center, set the contacts at just opening, we used a cigarette paper to feel the contacts opening.

The timing pointer on the timing case may have a few graduation marks, if so, you will need to rotate the pulley until the pulley mark aligns with the last mark on the timing pointer, this will give you top dead center for setting the contacts, and all of the rotation of the crankshaft pulley is done in a clockwise manner.

And then again, you may have the timing marks on the flywheel, in that case you may have to remove the starter to locate these or there may be a cover on the flywheel housing that you can shift to expose the markings.

So with that, this cowboy will leave you with that info and will ride off into the sunset.

Thanks for the info here, really appreciate it! Enjoy the ride!

 

[Donttouchthat]

View attachment 80297


I thought I had better ride back and comment on your last photo of the manifold, if that is a hole where I have that blue pointer aimed at, then you have big trouble, that part of the exhaust manifold has had it, another reason your engine will be playing up with the exhaust gas heating the inlet manifold, (you can see the black soot mark going up the inlet manifold) this will cause fuel evaporation to a certain degree and make the engine lose power as you commented on in a previous post.

I think you should begin to look for a replacement manifold, you may be able to get the old one repaired, you may be able to do a temporary repair with exhaust manifold gunk, but I can see a repair of the left hand end and the actual exhaust manifold section doesn't look that great overall, sorry for the bad news, something you didn't need to hear right now.

Yes you are correct with your question, the upper section is the inlet manifold where the engine draws in the fuel/air mixture to the cylinders, and the lower manifold is for the exhaust gases to leave the cylinders and be exhausted safely .

Something else to consider with that opening in the exhaust manifold, should the carby leak fuel there with the engine running, then you will have a fire that you most likely will not see if you are using the backhoe until it is too late to fight it, just a thought for you.

That was a short ride. But what else would a caring Cowboy do? Yeah that hole looks too ragged to be intentional. Tomorrow I'll get up in there and really inspect it. I like the temp repair route. I consider not so critical as I've gotten and hopefully will continue to get jobs around the homestead done with it. Thanks again and enjoy!

 

[FredM]

Thanks for the info here, really appreciate it! Enjoy the ride!

Geez!!, disregard that post, well a certain amount of it, sorry what I wrote was for timing the distributor.

All you need to do to set the point gap is to set the cam lobe on the distributor shaft inline with the contact set rubbing block lifter and adjust the opening.

 

[Donttouchthat]

Geez!!, disregard that post, well a certain amount of it, sorry what I wrote was for timing the distributor.

All you need to do to set the point gap is to set the cam lobe on the distributor shaft inline with the contact set rubbing block lifter and adjust the opening.

I still might use long screw driver approach against those pulley nuts to turn the crankshaft for lobe position. If not then like @fuddy1952 said, to just bump the starter a few times. Thanks!