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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm rehabbing this 1957- 330 International tractor which has a front bucket on it.

I'm working on removing the 3 cylinders and getting them re-packed.

To remove a cylinder, I have to release the hydraulic hoses.

This is a frankenstein collection of adaptors/connectors, metal lines, galvanized pipe, elbows, 3-way t connection...ugh.

I have no reason to keep the eclectic collection of connectors -- partially rusted, completely rusted, new ... ranging in size from 7/8 inch, to 1 inch, and larger -- some of these parts are SAE and others are metric.

Hoses on 1 side are original to the machine (yellow overspray paint), those on the other side have been replaced (no yellow overspray paint). And of course, if a 20 inch length of hose is good on one side then a 40 inch piece with a large curve in it is better for the other side.

Bless the soul of the prior owner for being creative and solving the hose connection problem with a minimum of cost and probably a maximum of labor.

What's a better way to solve this problem?

Fashion accessory Art Tool Metal Illustration


I'll have to check the size of the openings once I get the hoses off so I know the minimum size.

JW
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I'll add some photos of what I'm starting with.

Since I know nothing about the hydraulic world, I have a few questions.

1. Why are some of the lines metal and others just hose.
2. Why is there no teflon on the ends?
3. Why are there so many different sizes of connectors/adaptors.


JW
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Textile Motor vehicle Wood Automotive tire Gas

Right side, rear of the cylinder

Plant Automotive tire Asphalt Wood Road surface

Left side, rear of the cylinder... adaptors/connectors

Automotive tire Wood Brick Grass Motor vehicle

This is the collection of adaptors/connectors that was at the top of the cylinder that activates the bucket.
There was a different set at the bottom of the cylinder for that hose.

Light Automotive tire Paint Valve Line

This is typical of what I'm finding.
Connector on the left is 1 inch with a 7/8th inch above it that I released it from.
Yet on the right it was 1 1/8 inch and 1 inch and didn't have the two extra adapters.

JW
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Our Mahindra uses this...
Automotive tire Bicycle part Gas Rim Cylinder
Plant Automotive tire Pipeline transport Plumbing Grass
Plant Vehicle Pipeline transport Motor vehicle Grass
Plant Automotive tire Vehicle Motor vehicle Tire
Land vehicle Vehicle Tire Wheel Plant
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Plant Asphalt Tree
Tire Wheel Bicycle tire Bicycle frame Motor vehicle


And yet, I still see that one side has metal lines and the other has hoses.

This is a mystery to me on the purpose of the design.

JW
 

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I'm seriously considering replumbing the whole thing.
I need all new lines anyway, so I could just as well upgrade to a better connection system. I don't have to keep it 1957 + old farmer make-do.

I still have to figure out how to get this jewel released:
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Wood Tree Automotive exterior
There is actually a t-connector on the backside of this arm (behind the cylinder). I'm going to have to release the lines at the block or across the top to get it off. No working room.

I believe they must have put the plumbing together first and then put the bucket armature on -- carefully threading the pipes up and between locations so they could connect to cylinders after the bucket assembly was in place.

There is no way you could get a wrench in between the body and the bucket assembly.

Automotive tire Vehicle Motor vehicle Plant Wood

And of course, none of these connectors are 1 inch or 7/8 inch. I'll have to take more wrenches to the tractor this evening and try 1 1/8 or 1 1/16 and see which fits or if it is also metric.
Pipeline transport Motor vehicle Automotive tire Automotive exterior Mode of transport


JW
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Couple of years ago, the two mennonite boys I hired to help out around here killed our New Holland Tractor.

Too much youth and inexperience
plus
Too much testosterone
plus
Too little oversight
and they overfilled the hydraulics, it spewed a leak, and it caught fire. Burned up about 6 acres and nearly killed my husband.
Fired the boys.

I was supposed to part out the tractor but never did. Couldn't decide wether to find a new engine for it and repair or just replace it.

We opted to replace.

Now I have left about 3/4 of a good parts left -- most of the hydraulic lines are in good shape.

So I could repurpose the lines for the 330 International (at least the metal ones).

Automotive tire Blue Motor vehicle Automotive lighting Wood
Hood Automotive lighting Automotive tire Motor vehicle Wood
Plant Hood Automotive tire Vehicle Car
Automotive tire Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive fuel system Automotive exterior
Blue Gas Electric blue Auto part Pipe


Not sure I will reuse the pump and all that, but maybe some of the other lines.

JW
 

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JW,
This is strictly your decision, but I don't think most people would delve into replacing all of your hydraulic lines. For one that is an enormous task and in the end you still have old hoses if you rob a parts machine. I would only replace leaking hoses or the ones that show extreme wear and definitely not the steel tubing if there are no leaks. Those bends are very difficult to reproduce

As for different size hoses, I can imagine how that happened. Someone replaced that hose and could not get the proper diameter, so they used an adapter to bushing down to the fitting. This will not affect the performance as long as the hose size is larger and not smaller than original and the hose and adapter are rated for the pressure required.
*Note: In post #5 of this thread, I can see several fittings that are galvanized pipe .These are not rated for hydraulic pressure and should be replaced with hydraulic fittings before using the machine. This may have been the cause of the system failure and not the boys fault. They could burst under pressure.
Have you looked at purchasing a new tractor. I'm sure you could find some very good financing that would keep your note under what you might spend on this older tractor. I faced that decision 17 years ago and made the plunge. I've never regretted it because my 50 hp Kubota is one of my favorite and most used tools I own. When you need it, you shouldn't have to start a repair job each time. Although you feel your time is free labor there is a cost. We only have so many days in our life. Enjoy them.
Oh, and I've only had to change two hoses on FEL in 17 years. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

Is this the same tractor you have starter problems with?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Not the same tractor.

The Red Mahindra is the one with the starter problem and our less than 5 year old go-to tractor.

The Blue New Holland is the one that has had the engine burn from Hydraulic overfill.

The Yellow Utility International was purchased in an estate sale a couple of years ago - non-running.

I'm not trying to solve a problem of a reliable tractor for personal use.

I'm using the rehab of the Yellow Utility International as a distraction from the caregiving responsiblities I have.

Makes me strain my brain to solve problems and learn new concepts,
does not involve illicit drugs,
has no specific time requirement or dependency for completion,
and occasionally gives me a positive reinforcement that there is just one thing in this universe that I can control and get a good result from which does not include doctors or our health care system.

It was beyond hot today and I had to finish 4 loads of laundry so this was on the backburner today. I'll PB Blast the last connectors again this evening.

JW
 

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At one time, I was the Lead Mechanic for a fleet of 150+ trash trucks, so I know more than most people about hydraulic systems. You're working with a knuckle busting nightmare. Some of those fittings look to have been on the machine for over 50 years. When you go to take it apart, you'll end up rounding off more than a few of the hex nuts on the fittings, and you're going to find a few that you can't get enough leverage to break loose. When I've run into a situation like this, I've found the quickest and easiest way to disassemble a nightmare like this is with a 4 1/2" angle grinder ($20-$40 @ Harbor Freight) and a cutoff wheel ($9 for a 10 pack @ HF). You can strategically "cut" the mess apart in about 10 minutes. Since you're going to repack the cylinders and change hoses anyway, downstream contamination can be controlled. You can also use a small air-powered die grinder with a cut off wheel to cut a couple of angled slots across the hex nut of a hose connection and whack it with a hammer/chisel and they'll usually pop right off. Sounds nuts, but I've done it dozens of times. When you're paying a mechanic $30 an hour to disassemble something like this, you can't let him get hung up for 20 minutes on a $5 fitting that you're going to trash anyway. Depending on the cards the machine deals you in taking it apart, you may need to invest in a good set of pipe extractors if you happen to snap off a pipe nipple....

https://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-35670...pe+extractor&qid=1568989813&s=gateway&sr=8-24
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Bob --
Sorry for the delay getting back to you. My internet connection is dicey and I lost access from Friday night til Monday morning.

I did go out and draw diagrams of the hose routing and measured all my hoses (including the connectors or adaptors in the length).

My current plan is:
1. Get the cylinders off and into the guys for rebuilds.
2. Drain the fluid from the reservoir and pump.
3. Clean/replace the hydraulic filter/strainer.
4. Replace the lines.

Question 1:
Is there a compelling reason for me to remove the 90 degree elbows that the lines run to & from?

Question 2:
I'm wondering if I should put in a manifold for the lines instead of the spaghetti mess that is currently on the loader.

JW
 

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Question 1:
Is there a compelling reason for me to remove the 90 degree elbows that the lines run to & from?

If your talking about the elbows on the cylinders and valve body, probably not. bbirder expressed concern about some of the fittings being galvanized pipe. My thought is they worked up until now... You'll have a tough time getting those out without risking damage and replacing them with steel fittings is going to be time consuming and pricey.

Question 2:
I'm wondering if I should put in a manifold for the lines instead of the spaghetti mess that is currently on the loader.

Depends on what you're thinking in the way of a manifold. Machined manifolds with the size and # of ports you're going to need are expensive. One way you could clean everything up cheaply is to fabricate your own "manifold" using a thin piece of plate steel (12ga) and bulkhead fittings


This a straight bulkhead fitting. The two nuts clamp the fitting to the mounting plate and the ends on the one shown above take standard 37 degree JIC swivel connections. They also come with Male, or female, NPT fittings on either end, or both ends. They also make these in 90 & 45 degree. I like to use JIC swivels, it's much easier to assemble/disassemble. Parker and Aeroquip both make bulkhead fittings. Shop around to get the best price. Grainger and McMaster-Carr are NOT the most cost effective places to buy hydraulic fittings. If you see them cheap on E-bay, they're Chinese. 1/2" Parker steel bulkhead fittings like the one above run about $15 each.
 

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In case you don't know, hydraulic hose is generally referred to in dash sizes (-6, -8, etc.), not the size of wrench that fits the hex nut. The dash size refers to the inside diameter of the hose and is in 16ths. -6 (6/16th) 3/8", -8 (8/16th) 1/2", -10 (10/16th) 5/8", -12 (12/16th) 3/4". -6 (3/8") is generally used for "pilot hoses", -8 (1/2") is the most common size on farm tractors. -10 (5/8") is kind of rare, but you do see it. -12 (3/4") is the most common used on trash trucks and heavy equipment, but they can run hydraulic pumps that go from 28-50 GPM flow rates. You generally don't see pumps with those kind of flow rates on farm tractors.

Where people generally run into problems is the elbow fittings that connect to valve bodies and cylinders. High pressure hydraulic fittings are steel, not black, or galvanized pipe fittings. JIC hydraulic elbow fittings going into valve bodies and cylinders, generally have straight cut threads with a 37 degree taper on the nipple end. Brass plumbing fittings and DOT air fittings have a 45 degree taper on the nipple end. NPT pipe elbow fittings have tapered threads. -8 (1/2") JIC fittings have 16 threads per inch, where as 1/2" NPT has 14 threads per inch. It will thread in, but will either leak like a sieve, or eventually blow the fitting out of the port and take the threads with it. When somebody puts a NPT elbow in where a JIC elbow should have gone on a cylinder and it starts to leak, they'll goober on some more Teflon tape and try to give the fitting another full turn to stop the leak. It usually ends up cracking the fitting boss.

I've had some pretty extensive hydraulic training over the yeas and I was taught NEVER use Teflon tape on hydraulic connections. NEVER use plumbers pipe fitting dope. Neither will hold up the temperatures you see in a hydraulic system. I was taught to use Permatex 54540 liquid sealer that is specifically made for high temp hydraulic and pneumatic systems.

Hope this helps as you're planning your job...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
That's excellent guidance.
I really appreciate it.

I've got my husband's blessing to harvest what I need from his burned out New Holland and was thinking I could move the manifold from it over to this 330 international.

My main takeaways are:
1. Be very careful about which elbows and connectors I use
2. Be patient if I'm taking things apart rather than replacing
3. Never use the house plumbing tape or dope, use Permatex instead and if needed
4. Take my hoses with me when I replace them so I can get the proper sizes.


One more question:

It appears that some of my hydraulic hoses are just a bit larger than others. Is there a reason to have some hoses larger? Hydraulic lines going to the cylinder being larger than the return lines or vice versa?

I'm trying to figure out if the hoses are different because the Prior Owner was making do or if it was original. I'm thinking it was 'making do'.

JW

(PS thanks very much about the sizing lesson. I had no clue there is yet another measurement standard to learn .. lol)
 

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A normal design for double-acting hydraulic cylinder plumbing is that the hoses for both the extend and retract ports are the same size. A common misconception is that system pressure determines the operating speed of an actuator. Actuator speed is actually determined by the flow rate of the fluid through the plumbing expressed in GPM (gallons per minute)

Double-acting hydraulic cylinders always retract faster than they extend. However, more thrust force is generated on the extend side due to Pascal's Law P x A = F (pressure x area = force). Inside a hydraulic cylinder, you have a piston head attached to a rod. The rod takes up volume inside the cylinder, therefore that side fills faster at the same flow rate. However, because the rod also takes up surface area on the piston face (called annulus area), there is less piston area to apply fluid pressure and the thrust force is reduced. This picture illustrates the concept with the math:
Rectangle Slope Font Magenta Parallel


If you have two different size hoses on the same double-acting cylinder, the bigger hose is probably on the extend side in an ill-conceived attempt to get the extend speed closer to the retract speed. It usually doesn't work, because as one side of the piston fills, the other side has to "dump" back through the valve body. If you put a 3/4" line on the extend side to speed it up and have a 1/2" line trying to dump back though the valve body, the flow imbalance just creates heat that shortens pump life.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That is very good information and thank you for the detailed explanation.

Its refreshing to have the math and flow mechanics explained.

I grew up in a generation that girls " don't do math" and girls " don't work on cars", etc. etc.

Now that I've the opportunity to indulge -- I do.

JW
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Way past time for an update.
Last year? I had the cylinders repacked and new lines made.
Husband's health started failing so everything was put on hold for over a year-- almost 2.

Today, finally, I was able to get the lines reattached to the tractor...... BIG SURPRISE, I'm short one line. lol Did I miscount? Was I going to reuse one? Did I misplace one? Who knows. I've slept since then.

I'll get another one made on Monday.

So I moved on to installing the cylinders (3). Woohoo! I was able to get the one end pinned; but, the orientation of the other end was off by 45 degrees. Called a friend and he told me the secret to success. (I'll put a new posting for that.)

Although the cylinders are all lined up now, I have to air up the front tire and get the hydraulic checked out before I can activate the cylinder and get the other end pinned.

My last question is -- where do I get the overly large 'hair pin' keepers that go through the little holes on the pin the cylinder end rotates on? Lordy don't I sound ignorant about this-- and I am....

JW
 

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Way past time for an update.
Last year? I had the cylinders repacked and new lines made.
Husband's health started failing so everything was put on hold for over a year-- almost 2.

Today, finally, I was able to get the lines reattached to the tractor...... BIG SURPRISE, I'm short one line. lol Did I miscount? Was I going to reuse one? Did I misplace one? Who knows. I've slept since then.

I'll get another one made on Monday.

So I moved on to installing the cylinders (3). Woohoo! I was able to get the one end pinned; but, the orientation of the other end was off by 45 degrees. Called a friend and he told me the secret to success. (I'll put a new posting for that.)

Although the cylinders are all lined up now, I have to air up the front tire and get the hydraulic checked out before I can activate the cylinder and get the other end pinned.

My last question is -- where do I get the overly large 'hair pin' keepers that go through the little holes on the pin the cylinder end rotates on? Lordy don't I sound ignorant about this-- and I am....

JW

Those are called cotter pins or cotter keys.......Any auto parts store or farm store will have them in all different sizes....Do you have one of the old ones to compare for sizing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Those are called cotter pins or cotter keys.......Any auto parts store or farm store will have them in all different sizes....Do you have one of the old ones to compare for sizing?
Yes, I have the old ones. They are humongous. About as wide as your pinky figer and just as long. I'll take them with me to see what they can come up with.

JW
 
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