[CountyLife]

Hello- I'm new to the forum and I'm hoping somebody might be able to give me some insight into a problem I'm having with my new tractor (2021 NH Workmaster 50 with only 70 hours). I find myself having to wait a significant amount ofor my loader to dump the material when I am doing loader work. I counted how long it takes to go from full curl to full dump and that time is 10 seconds. My neighbors MX 5800 Kubota tractor will do that same dump process in only 3 seconds. Hydraulics are strong and can lift the tractor. Loader speed seems fine. I swap the Hydraulic hoses for the loader and bucket to see if that might speed the bucket curl but it did not. Does anybody know how long it should normally take to dump a load of material or where I could find that information? Any information/thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks 🤝

 

[I use red mn]

Hello- I'm new to the forum and I'm hoping somebody might be able to give me some insight into a problem I'm having with my new tractor (2021 NH Workmaster 50 with only 70 hours). I find myself having to wait a significant amount ofor my loader to dump the material when I am doing loader work. I counted how long it takes to go from full curl to full dump and that time is 10 seconds. My neighbors MX 5800 Kubota tractor will do that same dump process in only 3 seconds. Hydraulics are strong and can lift the tractor. Loader speed seems fine. I swap the Hydraulic hoses for the loader and bucket to see if that might speed the bucket curl but it did not. Does anybody know how long it should normally take to dump a load of material or where I could find that information? Any information/thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks 🤝

Have you owned the tractor since new and has it always had this loader on it? Has it always been like this or is this a new development? Do you have a manual for the loader? If so does it mention anything about a restricter in the line or on the curl cylinders to limit the speed of motion. Since this is a CUT they very well be required to install something like this to limit the possibility an inexperienced operator from getting in a jam with a fast moving bucket up in the air throwing around a lot of weight around. Look for an additional section an inch or so long where the hoses attach to the curl cylinder. It will most likely be on the lift side of the cylinder which on a bucket curl cylinder is the same end the ram extends from. Compare the attachments points of the hoses to the fittings on the opposite end of the cylinders. If there looks like an extra part is installed on one or the other you have probably found your restrictors. Secondly, look at the cylinders for the bucket on your neighbors Kubota. If they are quite a bit smaller than yours that is also a reason yours is slower. Bigger cylinder give more lift power but are slower due to needing more oil to fill the volume.

 

[Rolex]

Some brands of tractors have slow and fast in the control lever, have you looked in your hand book ?

EG: pushing fully right may be slow but only pushing partly to the right could be quicker, if the joy stick is worn you may not feel the change point, if you have 2 levers discount the above information

Are you happy with the speed of the rest of the hydraulics ?

 

[theduke]

Some loader sticks have a regen feature (JD)....this has a similar effect to what you are describing.
iirc....moving stick slightly to dump is regular speed. Moving ALL the way to dump..engages this Regen feature. No clue if your machine may have this.
If its a MSL loader......they tend to dump slower on some models vs the NSL loader.

 

[CountyLife]

Have you owned the tractor since new and has it always had this loader on it? Has it always been like this or is this a new development? Do you have a manual for the loader? If so does it mention anything about a restricter in the line or on the curl cylinders to limit the speed of motion. Since this is a CUT they very well be required to install something like this to limit the possibility an inexperienced operator from getting in a jam with a fast moving bucket up in the air throwing around a lot of weight around. Look for an additional section an inch or so long where the hoses attach to the curl cylinder. It will most likely be on the lift side of the cylinder which on a bucket curl cylinder is the same end the ram extends from. Compare the attachments points of the hoses to the fittings on the opposite end of the cylinders. If there looks like an extra part is installed on one or the other you have probably found your restrictors. Secondly, look at the cylinders for the bucket on your neighbors Kubota. If they are quite a bit smaller than yours that is also a reason yours is slower. Bigger cylinder give more lift power but are slower due to needing more oil to fill the volume.

Great insight. I bought the tractor new and it's always been like that. I'll check for restricters and cylinder size to see if it's deliberately made that slow. Thanks.

 

[theduke]

This seems to be an issue with the early models.
And Yes there is a 2 position dump feature on those early models as I suspected.
Check your manual.....

check out this thread...it has some info in the last few posts as well as whats on pg 1 perhaps.

Problems with Workmaster 50

I'm on the fritz with this hip replacement. I'll be released next week hopefully from the surgeon. I'll test my tractor out at idle. I'll report back to you. I believe the dealer is blowing smoke.

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[CountyLife]

Some brands of tractors have slow and fast in the control lever, have you looked in your hand book ?

EG: pushing fully right may be slow but only pushing partly to the right could be quicker, if the joy stick is worn you may not feel the change point, if you have 2 levers discount the above information

Are you happy with the speed of the rest of the hydraulics ?

The rest of the hydraulics seem
good. There is a noticeable detent all the way to the right with the joystick. Maybe the dump feature isn't working properly. Thanks for the insight.

 

[CountyLife]

This seems to be an issue with the early models.
And Yes there is a 2 position dump feature on those early models as I suspected.
Check your manual.....

check out this thread...it has some info in the last few posts as well as whats on pg 1 perhaps.

Problems with Workmaster 50

I'm on the fritz with this hip replacement. I'll be released next week hopefully from the surgeon. I'll test my tractor out at idle. I'll report back to you. I believe the dealer is blowing smoke.

www.tractorbynet.com

Will do. Thanks👍

 

[I use red mn]

Some loader sticks have a regen feature (JD)....this has a similar effect to what you are describing.
iirc....moving stick slightly to dump is regular speed. Moving ALL the way to dump..engages this Regen feature. No clue if your machine may have this.
If its a MSL loader......they tend to dump slower on some models vs the NSL loader.

The dukes is throwing his knowledge of acronyms at us. A MSL is a “Mechanical Self-leveling” model. Which means as you raise the loader it also tilts the bucket to keep it the same level. So if you had a bucket full of sand (good luck lifting that!) as you raise it real high it keeps the sand from running over the back due to the angle adjustments. Also NMSL would mean Non-MSL.
I suppose he may have swapped the hoses out of the joy stick. When he said he swapped the hoses I took it to mean he just uses the two stock remote levers but I could be wrong. I also thought about there being an overall adjustment to control hydraulic flow as has also been mentioned.

 

[theduke]

The dukes is throwing his knowledge of acronyms at us. A MSL is a “Mechanical Self-leveling” model. Which means as you raise the loader it also tilts the bucket to keep it the same level. So if you had a bucket full of sand (good luck lifting that!) as you raise it real high it keeps the sand from running over the back due to the angle adjustments. Also NMSL would mean Non-MSL.
I suppose he may have swapped the hoses out of the joy stick. When he said he swapped the hoses I took it to mean he just uses the two stock remote levers but I could be wrong. I also thought about there being an overall adjustment to control hydraulic flow as has also been mentioned.

I have little knowledge of the NH system.
Read lots on the JD system
Without reading a NH manual.....a bit of a mystery.

It does appear that at one time..2017.....the dump feature of the loader stick Had 2 different spots where it would dump.......Similar to JD's regen feature.
This needs to be confirmed or not as its the simplest thing to check.

To further complicate.....It seems some hoses were mislabled from the "loader" manufacturer.
This could be a big part of His problem.
Quick disconnects tend to go bad for no reason...yet another possibility

Combine this with some pump issues that seemed to be happening to this model.
Then take in to account that this is all just reported issues on the internet......Whats the answer.
IDK......I'd start by reading the manual on this loader controller.
OP is or should be in warentee still......I'd be talking to the dealer asap.

Does MSL or NSL have or play a part in this issue...no clue either.
Thought NH was the leader in the pack on the MSL so one would think they would have this solved in the event that , that feature by itself is part of the problem.

 

[I use red mn]

Dukes, I was more talking about the fact that you dropped the acronyms on him. I grew up on a farm but I am in the city now and haven’t been around much modern farm equipment for 20 years. So I had to do a search to see what your term meant. This guys handle is “Country Living” he has a CUT (see what I did there.. compact utility tractor. Had to search out what that meant when I joined this forum a week or so ago) and so does his neighbor. This screams “suburbia dwellers” So I doubt he knows what a MSL loader is off the cuff. Waiting to see what he comes back with.

 

[theduke]

I get it.......a lot of this is New to me as well.

I'm old school and just trying to keep up with all this new stuff.

Read about some add on function for a 5 series JD.......when the switch is flipped , and you hit the brakes....It automaticly puts it in 4x4. who knew?

There are so many new ad ons to New tractors ....its getting complicated.....I'm fine with my 96 machine and the 47.

 

[Rolex]

Turning your cylinders around the other way may get you the result you want.

It takes more oil and time to extend a cylinder and less oil & time to close one.

The inner ram tube takes up most of the room when closing and that space has to be filled when opening.

 

[I use red mn]

You must have bumped your head real hard!! THINK about what you are suggesting and and get back to us. In the original configuration this will change nothing. What you are suggesting cannot work without adding a lot of additional mechanical linkage that reverses the stroke motion of the cylinder or totally changing the location of the cylinders in relation to the bucket hinge.

 

[Rolex]

I'm not suggesting any changes except swap one end of the cylinder for the other.

To make things easy to understand, disconnect the hoses, look at the cylinders in the parked position, turn each cylinder up the other way, so what is now the top pin point will be the bottom pin point and the bottom pin point will be the top.

Then refit the hoses.

It is not reversing anything it all works the same as it did, it just acts faster in the opposite direction to the way it does now.

I have done this many times with great success.

 

[I use red mn]

I'm not suggesting any changes except swap one end of the cylinder for the other.

To make things easy to understand, disconnect the hoses, look at the cylinders in the parked position, turn each cylinder up the other way, so what is now the top pin point will be the bottom pin point and the bottom pin point will be the top.

Then refit the hoses.

It is not reversing anything it all works the same as it did, it just acts faster in the opposite direction to the way it does now.

I have done this many times with great success.

Well you thought you had success, but you just wasted your time and added unnecessary flexing to your hoses. You overlooked the item I told you to do which was “think about it.” No matter which direction you have the cylinder facing whether the ram is connected to the bucket or the mount of the cylinder tube the SAME EXTENSION action is required to move the bucket in the dumping direction. That means the oil still needs to fill the space in the cylinder tube that is not occupied by the ram, plain an simple. No passing Go, not getting the $200! You can continue to think otherwise but you are in error. To make your way of thinking work the cylinder would have to retract “pull the ram in” to dump the bucket. That cannot happen without mechanical connection changes.

 

[The 203]

OP is or should be in

 

[Rolex]

If you look at a typical ram, there is the big black outer cylinder and the inner silver rod. (just to make the descriptions easy)

At its shortest point you add oil to one end of the outer cylinder to push out the inner rod, let's say it takes 4 buckets of oil to fill the outer cylinder and push the inner rod to its full extent.

When you reverse it and push the oil into the other end of the outer cylinder the inner rod will retract, you only need 1 bucket of oil because the inner rod takes up most of the space.

 

[I use red mn]

Rolex, I agree with you fully on the oil displacement in the cylinder being different. The way the cylinder interacts with the motion of the bucket it needs the cylinder to EXTEND to dump the bucket which requires filling the part of the cylinder that has the most volume. Again the ONLY WAY to utilize the smaller displacement side of the cylinder is to use the RETRACT stroke of the cylinder. This CANNOT be done with out changing the configuration of the “LEVER” the cylinder is operating in relation to the FULCRUM which is the bucket hinge point. Look at the configuration of the buckets and cylinders on the machines in the link which are the make and model he has. Workmaster 50 with loaders
Your mind is not open to accepting to learn a different basis that opposes a way of thinking that has been perceived to be correct. People also thought the world was flat, of course that has since been disproven. This will be my last reply to this outrageous tangent for this topic. It does not help the OP with his problem at all. Have a good day!

 

[FredM]

If you look at a typical ram, there is the big black outer cylinder and the inner silver rod. (just to make the descriptions easy)

At its shortest point you add oil to one end of the outer cylinder to push out the inner rod, let's say it takes 4 buckets of oil to fill the outer cylinder and push the inner rod to its full extent.

When you reverse it and push the oil into the other end of the outer cylinder the inner rod will retract, you only need 1 bucket of oil because the inner rod takes up most of the space.

The man is right Rolex, have a look at the 950 Cat dump linkage setup, this was used to get the maximum breakout force of the cylinder by using the piston end and not the rod end.