Tractor Forum banner
1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have a friend with what sounds to me like a stuck clutch on his 424. He almost drove the tractor into his pond when the clutch would not release while he was brush hogging. (i.e. the tractor just kept driving on even though he had depressed the clutch and hit the brakes) They were in the process of taking the tractor to a mechanic to have it repaired. I have read where starting the tractor with the clutch depressed and chained to a tree or holding it with the brakes can sometimes if you are very lucky, break the clutch loose. I am not familiar with the 424 and as of yet, I have not been able to go look at the tractor. Is the clutch pressure plate bolts or clutch assemble accessible without splitting the tractor? I was thinking of possibly backing out the pressure plate bolts some to release some pressure and may trying to tap a really thin putty knife or similar tool in between the clutch and pressure plate if the above method does not work. Any of you have this problem before? If so, what did you do to fix it. Splitting the tractor is the last resort but sometimes that just has to be done. Any suggestions, comments, or ideas very welcome. They need to get the tractor running as they use it to maintain their dirt driveway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
Chief, if the 424 does not have live PTO, the fly-wheel has a flat face, and backing off the P-plate bolts would give acces to the clutch disk. There is an access cover in the bottom of the clutch housing.
If it has a live PTO, the clutch disk is recessed into the flywheel about 1 1/2 -2 inches, the only way to get to it is by splitting, sorry! :cry:

Has the tractor been sitting without being run for a while?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
parts man, thanks for the fast reply! No, I asked them the same question and explained the importance of blocking the clutch pedal up and they told me that they had been brush hogging with it when the brush hog broke a shear bolt in the drive line. They went to the store and purchased another shear bolt and when he went to start the tractor; off she went even though he had the clutch in.

Do you think the shear bolt breaking and this problem are related? Now that I think about it; I wonder if they had the correct shear bolt installed and if it was not, did this cause damage somewhere in the drive train/clutch. I will ask them if they hit something pretty big while brush hogging. When I spoke with his wife on the phone, she said she thought the tractor had the 2 stage clutch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
AAH, it becomes clearer. It sounds like the shock to the drive line either damaged the secondary (PTO) disk and jammed the assembly and/or broke a P-plate finger or adjusting bolt. If you need any info send me an email, I've got the service manual for the 2-stage clutch for those tractors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks partsman! I probably need to go and take a look at this tractor and get the story first hand but it does not sound good from what you are saying and sounds like the tractor needs to be split.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
Chief, I'm glad to be able to help when I can, and saddly it does sound like the tractor will need split.
I can scan and email the pages that you will need to set the clutch up properly when re-assembling.

BTW, unless the clutch was very tired already, I would have to think that he had the wrong shear bolt to cause that kind of damage. Those are very sturdy tractors, and can take a lot of abuse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
977 Posts
i'm not to familiar with the 424 but its likely worthwhile checking the splines and couplers between the clutch and the pto. i had to split a massey twice years ago due to this oversite
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I am going to go over and take a looksee and see exactly what the situation is. It does not sound good but maybe when I lay eyes on it ; things may be savable. I will not be hold my breath waiting for good news. :confused: I will get back to you guys with the latest.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
Originally posted by bear
i'm not to familiar with the 424 but its likely worthwhile checking the splines and couplers between the clutch and the pto. i had to split a massey twice years ago due to this oversite
Chief, these tractors are built a little differently than the masseys, the transmission and differential housings are cast as one piece, so there are no couplers like in the massey. Dry splines at the clutch disks can cause enough binding that the clutch won't release tho.
I'm not sure that you can get enough lubrication to the right place without splitting the tractor if this is the case tho.:argh:
Sorry!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I went and took a look at the tractor today. He was not there so I did not do much more than checking it over. The clutch pedal has about 1.75 - 2 " of free play before hitting the 1st stage of the clutch. Another 1.75 - 2" more and I can feel the 2nd stage. There does not feel like any think is binding. I am going to try to meet him and talk to him about it the middle of this week. The tractor looks like it has potential and is not in bad shape.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,394 Posts
That same basic thing almost happened to me with my Ford 1720. It had been used on a very cold day dragging 40 foot long power poles out of a field where the power company installed a new run of poles, and I got the old poles. To get to the poles without having to go 40 miles out of my way I could simply transverse a small creek and be in the field in a matter mof minutes. The area I selecte dto make my crossing at was only about 12 to 14 inches deep. No problem, but after quite a few trips up and down the bank with the poles it was starating to get slick (lots of clay) and since I had to go down the one bank at an angle, on my last trip the tractor slid sideways down the bak, and I had no chooice but to try and recover, and wound up in the middle of the creek facing downstream instead of cross wise. The more I tried to get back up the other bank the stucker (is this a word?) I got, so I headed down stream a bit more, water got a bit deeper like about 3 feet or so, but the bank there was easy to get up. I got home, freezing cold and crawled in the house to warm up. The next day I relubed the front end and all looked ok. Tractor went unused for almost a month. I got on it and the thing would not respond to the clutch even though it felt like it was releasing etc. It turned out that the clutch facing was stuck to the pressure plate and flywheel, and all that was moving was me compressing the clutch and pressure plate springs but the cluch plate was bonded fast. I found this out after I split the tractor, and pulled off some clutch facing in the process of getting it unbonded. Just humidity or dampness can cause this on a cluct if its not used for a period of time. Later on I found in my owners manual that stated if tractor is not to be used for a period of time to install a spacer block (included in tools accessories that came with tractor, and nothingmore than a piece of wood with a string on it) between clutch pedal linkage and floor board to keep clutch face from adhering to pressure plate / flywheel.
Look around the tractors bell housing area for any plugs or openings etc that youy may be able to gain access to the clutchj facing edge with. My tractor has a drain hole in the bottom of the bell housing but it was fille dup with debri and never really left the bellhousing areas drain, and just enough water seeped in past the rubber plugs on the side to get the clutch wet. Now I leave the plugs out and enlarged the drain hole, so it always has ventilation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It looks like there is a removable plate on the bottom side of the bell housing/trans case. I will see about removing to get a look up inside to see what is going on in there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
Originally posted by Chief
It looks like there is a removable plate on the bottom side of the bell housing/trans case. I will see about removing to get a look up inside to see what is going on in there.
Chief, that's the one, light tin plate, not the cast one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
parts man, you are definitely right about these tractors being built strong! I liked the design and features of this tractor. It pained me GREATLY to see a can of ether sitting in the fender toolbox nearly empty! :naah: :skull: :cry: On the left side of the cylinder head there was a row of 4 small threaded plugs with a small prong or stud protruding from each one. I take it that these are glow plugs? I did not see any wires going to them; so I see where the ether came from. Can you give me a quick run down on the pre-heat/glow plug system on this tractor? Usually there is a provision in the ignition switch or a separate switch/button and relay for glow plugs but I saw no wiring what so ever for this. It probably stopped working at some point in the tractors life and the wiring and all got pulled out. I hate to see folks use ether except under the most sparing of circumstances as it eventually leads to engine rebuild in most cases and catastrophic failure when abused or use improperly. I tell folks to first fix the glow plug/preheat system and install a block heater and then if you still have to use a staring aid; use WD-40 instead of ether. I remember when John Deere used it on the old 750, 755, 850, & 855 dozers & track loaders I used to work on and I did not like it then. Would it be worth while to look into reinstalling the glow plug wiring & relay? (assuming it used one) My instincts tell me that you can't afford not too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
Chief, 444s did indeed have glow plugs. I too hate to see ether used, bad, bad ,bad stuff!!!
The key switch has a position between run and start for the glow plugs. I'll have to look in my service or parts book to remember the proper wiring of the system but, there is a resister/ indicater in the dash between the key switch and glow plugs, which are wired i series and grounded to the block.
I'll try to remember to check on the proper wiring sequence tomorrow., and get the number of the glow plugs. I do remember they are "champion".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks partsman! I may go over again Wed. and see about taking that plate off the bell housing and having a looksee. I bet that old 424 would start a lot easier if it had functioning glow plugs. :idea:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
Yeah, they like their heat!:smiles: We use a couple of that series tractor at home, a 444 and a 384. The 384 will start no problem down to around 50 deg, then you gotta pre-heat, but then will start down to -25 with out being plugged in, the 444, even at 80 deg you have to pre-heat the first time each day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
My old Kubota L245 was like that and liked to have the glow plugs hit prior to each start. Glow plugs are much cheaper than starters! :thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,542 Posts
Chief, got the wiring diagram here. The terminals on the key switch are numbered. (If the switch is original:rolleyes: ) #3 terminal goes to the resister/indicater input. #5 goes to resister/indicater output ( I know, sounds wierd but that is right!).
Output side of indicater goes to glow plug 1 outer end. Then conect glow plugs in series inner to inner , then outer to outer ends, till at #4 outer goes to ground on front of block.

Clear as mud??:lmao:


BTW, forgot to check # of the glow plugs today, sorry :eek: , I'll try to remember tomorrow.
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top