Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

5105 Quit while idling and wont restart

I was in the process of hooking up the brush hog & left the JD idling & all of a sudden it just quit...just like you turned a key off. It was a little low on fuel so I thought since it was parked on the hill it may have gotten air in the fuel so I put a full tank of diesel in it. I bled the lines and still nothing...just turns over. I checked the air cleaner for obstructions...nothing. I checked all the fuses and rebled the lines, even replaced the fuel filter...still nothing. I noticed the hose coming from the top of the fuel tank to the injector manifold was leaking right up at the engine. I cut off the dry rotted fuel line & reconnected solving the leak. I unhooked the fuel lines from the injector pump that lead to the injectors and turned the engine over and no fuel comes out of the pump. Shouldn't some fuel come out of there when the engine gets cranked? Seems to me it would. I reattached that line and unhooked the line leading from the filter to the pump and turned the engine over. Small amounts of fuel squirted out of that location. That's the wrong way though...that's pumping back into the fuel supply line. That cant be right. Anyone have any other ideas? Id drag the tractor to the dealer if I could get my truck & trailer in there to get it out. I've spent two days screwing with it and am out of ideas. I might mention the tractor has 117 hours on it...so everything is practically new. I bought it in 2002. I dont use it much. Help!

Last edited by woodbutcher on 06-21-2009 at 06:39 PM

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

Also...i hear the click of the solenoid when i turn the key on & off so i dont think that's the problem. Worked on it for 6 more hours today...im completely out of ideas.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Turnbo Hollow, Tennessee
Posts: 9249
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Sounds like you have fuel up to the fuel injection pump. Right? If you ran the system dry of fuel, you will have to bleed each fuel injector line upto the fuel injector. This done by loosening the line nut at each injector and cranking the engine until you get a good diesel spray at each injector. Retighten the injector line nut and start the engine.

Look in your operator's manual and see if bleeding the fuel system is covered. On some of the smaller John Deere tractors, the system is self bleeding but I am not sure about yours.

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John Deere 4410, 72" MMM, 430 loader, Land Pride 1558 Rotary Tiller, 1584 Landscaping Rake, & PD 25 Post Hole Digger, Modern Equipment 4" HD rotary cutter, 500 lb. pto spreader, John Deere F525

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer



tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

yep...i have tons of fuel up to the pump but nothing in the lines leading to the injectors. I unhooked the lines that go to the injectors and turned the engine over...nothing comes out of the pump. The manual has a very generic method for bleeding the system. There is a bleeder screw at the filter and it says to loosen the line on the top of the pump which is the the overflow. Also says to pump the hand primer. That doesnt do anything that I can tell. That whole process doesnt make sense since there shouldnt be anything running out of the overflow if it's not running...but it is...it pours out when i loosen that line. Thanks for the help by the way.

Any clue if there's a cutoff switch in the event of low oil? It's sitting on a hill right now and the oil reads low...but I think it's just because it's sitting on a hill.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

OK so I thought of something...i opened the fuel tank to see just how much fuel is in the tractor. When I added fuel I added it to the high side of the tractor...mind you the tractor is sitting on a hill, perpendicular to the slope...so one side of the tractor is lower than the other. I opened the low filler spout (filler spout on the low slope side of the tractor) and it's all the way full. I looked at the return line and how it is in reference to the fuel level. IT is actually lower than the top of the fuel in the tank which means it's feeding the pump instead of returning unused fuel. So my question is...is is such that the pump cant push all of that fuel through the line to the fuel tank? I found a diesel mechanic that's willing to come out to the house and look at it if I cant get it to run. It might be worth it to end this frustration.

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: central Fl
Posts: 105

"So my question is...is is such that the pump cant push all of that fuel through the line to the fuel tank?"

To check this, get another piece of fuel line....disconnect return line from the pump to tank & plug it (to keep it from running out).......put the extra piece of line from the pump to an empty fuel can (so it'll not run on the ground.)
Sometimes, it's worth the price of a mechanic to save hours (or days), of frustration.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Turnbo Hollow, Tennessee
Posts: 9249
Gold Member

Now that we have verified good fuel supply to the pump, I think the pump is not allowing the fuel in. You may be hearing the solenoid on the pump click, but in some cases the solenoid goes bad due to oil leaking into the plunger area that actuates turning fuel on and off to the pump.

If your tractor is under warranty, the dealer can fix this for you. If not, you can try removing the solenoid assembly and cleaning out the oil and reinstalling.

This repair will work but not be a permanent fix because eventually the oil will leak back in and cause the problem again. It IS however MUCh cheaper than taking it to the dealer or removing the injector pump and taking it to a diesel injection shop.

Another possibilty is the solenoid timer delay module has failed which supplies current to the "pull-in" windings of the injector pump solenoid for a brief time and then the "hold-in" windings keep it engaged. The solenoid delay module is not cheap. You may want to troubleshoot this to verify.

The voltage from the module should drop from 12v to 6v after about 10 seconds. Put a volt meter on the hot to the fuel shut-off solenoid to verify whether the voltage drop occurs. If it does not, it's likely the problem is with the timer and that it will need to be replaced along with purchasing another fuel shut-off solenoid.

I suggest you call your John Deere dealer and talk to one of the technicians in the shop to get some advice on troubleshooting and pointers on trouble areas to look for.

I am kinda grasping at straws here and doing the best I can to advise you with the info. you have provided. Long story short is that something is block fuel going into the injector pump it sounds like.

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John Deere 4410, 72" MMM, 430 loader, Land Pride 1558 Rotary Tiller, 1584 Landscaping Rake, & PD 25 Post Hole Digger, Modern Equipment 4" HD rotary cutter, 500 lb. pto spreader, John Deere F525

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer



tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

Thanks for all of your advice...seems like there is more at work than I originally thought. As it turns out a lady I know has a husband that works on tractors for a living. I think im gonna call him and have him out to look at it. The frustration has to end.

You mentioned oil getting into the plunger...is there oil in the injector pump aside from the fuel?

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

Bench tested the solenoid and it's NOT the solenoid. Im waiting on the JD mechanic to call me back so he can hopefully troubleshot the pump over the phone...hey...it could happen. The tractor place next door said it's nearly impossible that it would be the pump with only 117 hours on it. I'll keep u posted...

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

Drumroll please......................it's the injector pump. Talked to the mechanic at the JD dealer & after explaining what happened...the symptoms and all of that he has decided it's the pump. He said "you don't run it much do you?" "you were running it for 10 min and all of a sudden it just quit, right?" "There was a little water in the separator, right?" I said yup...exactly. He said water made it into the tank from condensation and the fact the tank was left almost empty for so long. The water then made it's way to the injector pump and sat there & rusted the pistons in the pump. He said the pistons seized and don't travel any more...even though the shaft still turns, the pistons don't. He said that Stanadyne pump is touchy as far as getting water in it and letting it stay in there for a while. I asked him how I could be 100% sure the pump failed before I dumped a bunch of money into having it rebuilt & he said "the fact that nothing comes out of the injector lines when you crank it tells you it's shot." The humidity here in NW Arkansas is really high, so I understand. So, gents, if you own a diesel...drain the water out of the separator on a regular basis. I found a place on the net I can get the pump rebuilt for $375.00. JD wants $1100.00 to rebuild it. Just from a little water...ugh.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Turnbo Hollow, Tennessee
Posts: 9249
Gold Member

Sorry to hear about your pump diagnosis. For future reference, I STRONGLY recommend mixing 2 stroke oil with your diesel fuel. I mix it in mine for all my diesel applications at 100:1. It is VERY cheap insurance and helps to keep the injector pump well lubricated. I use the Walmart Super Tech Marine Engine 2 stroke oil in the gallon container. It runs about $7 per gallon jug.

NEVER leave your tractor setting for any appreciable amount of time with anything other than a FULL fuel tank. It is just good protocol and will help to avoid condensation build up in the tank.

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John Deere 4410, 72" MMM, 430 loader, Land Pride 1558 Rotary Tiller, 1584 Landscaping Rake, & PD 25 Post Hole Digger, Modern Equipment 4" HD rotary cutter, 500 lb. pto spreader, John Deere F525

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer



tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

Lesson learned. I used the tractor a bit more in TX when I had a field to mow but now that we live in AR I dont have a field any more...just roads to keep mowed on our new piece of land since it's all forest and steep hills. Im planning on getting a loader for the JD this summer and hopefully I'll use her more. I just never thought anything like this would happen as long as it had a water/fuel separator on it. I thought that was my insurance policy.

I like your idea of using 2 stroke oil in it. Have you ever used Stabil in it? I went on a rampage adding it to all of my mowers, ATV's, tillers but not sure I used it on the JD. Just wondering if it's not such a good idea to use it on a diesel. What about HEET? Ever use that on a diesel? I swear I'll be out there every couple of days running that thing now and NEVER going to leave it with a nearly empty tank. N E V E R !!!!!!!!!!! Thank all of you for your replies. I really dig this board...and will be checking in more often now...adding my 2 cents where applicable.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Turnbo Hollow, Tennessee
Posts: 9249
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quote:

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Originally posted by woodbutcher
Have you ever used Stabil in it? I went on a rampage adding it to all of my mowers, ATV's, tillers but not sure I used it on the JD. Just wondering if it's not such a good idea to use it on a diesel. What about HEET? Ever use that on a diesel? I swear I'll be out there every couple of days running that thing now and NEVER going to leave it with a nearly empty tank. N E V E R !!!!!!!!!!! Thank all of you for your replies. I really dig this board...and will be checking in more often now...adding my 2 cents where applicable.

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__________________
John Deere 4410, 72" MMM, 430 loader, Land Pride 1558 Rotary Tiller, 1584 Landscaping Rake, & PD 25 Post Hole Digger, Modern Equipment 4" HD rotary cutter, 500 lb. pto spreader, John Deere F525

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer



tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

I feel compelled to update you all on what we're doing. We pulled the tail piece off of the pump and got to looking around in there. There is an impeller type mechanism (made of metal...not rubber) that pumps the fuel...not a piston like the JD guy said. We took it all apart & cleaned it out. There was a little evidence of rust in there but nothing to write home about. It basically boiled down to a little discoloration on the metal...but not much. We cleaned it with steel wool & put it all back together then filled the pump with diesel. We attached a hose with a cup on it to the intake side of the pump and electrified the solenoid to open it. I turned the pump by hand and got the pump to pull a little diesel into it. I kept turning it and it started to catch...like it was hanging or something. That, gents, is fuel pressure. I hooked the air ratchet up to the shaft & spun the pump and viola...it started squirting...each orifice that leads to the injectors fired fuel out of them. Now...what's wrong with it? Not a clue. Why did it quit pumping...still no clue. Is it fixed? I doubt it. What does this accomplish? It tells us that beyond a shadow of a doubt that the pump was the reason the JD quit running. That in itself is priceless. Now I know the basics of the pump and what it SHOULD do. Much like learning to work on cars, this is how I learned to work on my tractors. Just thought I'd tell you guys what had transpired.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Turnbo Hollow, Tennessee
Posts: 9249
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IF you decide to put it back together, install it on the tractor and see if it works.................be SURE you have some means of IMMEDIATELY turning the fuel OFF and or blocking the air into the intake manifold in the unlikely event that the engine runs away when you start it. The injector pump is the heart of a diesel engine and if there is a problem with the pump or it has not been properly reassembled, the engine can run away once started (read go to FULL power, over reving and destroying itself.)

Usually injector pumps once rebuilt or repair are placed on a test stand/machine and checked for proper function to preclude this happening.

__________________
John Deere 4410, 72" MMM, 430 loader, Land Pride 1558 Rotary Tiller, 1584 Landscaping Rake, & PD 25 Post Hole Digger, Modern Equipment 4" HD rotary cutter, 500 lb. pto spreader, John Deere F525

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer



tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

That's interesting. I didn't know that. I don't have any plans of putting it back on the tractor. At this point it's just an autopsy.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Eastern Iowa
Posts: 285

Wow, I would not have thought...... Well, goes to show I should not think. Congratulation on the correct diagnosis. Best of all you know how to prevent it from happening again!!

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Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 46

Based on the description of what happened, and the inside of the pump and the water in the separator, I suspect the JD mechanic was wrong.

It sounds a lot more likely that the fuel pump ingested some water. Water will not pass the injector tips, so it locks up the system.

It likely resulted from the combination of low fuel level and parking on the hill, that tipped the machine over to the point where there was just water over the fuel pick up point which is normally raised up a little to prevent this.

You need to flush the entire fuel tank and the rest of the system too.

The pump may not be shot though. Some pumps have the equivalent of frost plugs to prevent damage when this happens. Take it to any good pump shop and have them bench test it.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 21

quote:

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Originally posted by Cannuck-elhead
Based on the description of what happened, and the inside of the pump and the water in the separator, I suspect the JD mechanic was wrong.

It sounds a lot more likely that the fuel pump ingested some water. Water will not pass the injector tips, so it locks up the system.

It likely resulted from the combination of low fuel level and parking on the hill, that tipped the machine over to the point where there was just water over the fuel pick up point which is normally raised up a little to prevent this.

You need to flush the entire fuel tank and the rest of the system too.

The pump may not be shot though. Some pumps have the equivalent of frost plugs to prevent damage when this happens. Take it to any good pump shop and have them bench test it.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Turnbo Hollow, Tennessee
Posts: 9249
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I would recommend you pull all of the fuel injectors and take them with you when you take the injector pump in to be repaired and have the shop bench test the fuel injectors for proper pop pressure and spray pattern. This will also insure any water or contamination blocking or restricting the fuel injectors is purged out or is at least identified so the injector can be repaired or replaced.

A bad fuel injector can do tremendous damage to the engine over time, especially if it stick open or has a really bad spray pattern.

Best to check everthing out while you have it apart and reassemble with known good components.

Be sure to blow out ALL of the fuel and injector pump/injector lines with compressed air to ensure they are purged of any potential contamination as well.

Replace the fuel filter and clean out the fuel water separator. Even though you just replaced the filter, you don't want to take the chance of reintroducing left over contaimination.

Lastly, you need to purge the fuel tank of any contamination. I believe there is a fuel tank purge valve the drains fuel and contamination from the bottom most portion of the fuel tank. Open this drain valve and let fuel run out until you are satisfied that good clean UNCONTAMINATED fuel is running out.

Refuel with KNOWN good clean fuel that has been treated with a good quality diesel fuel additive such as Power Service or Stanodyne, etc. and some 2 stroke oil mix for lubrication.

Once you have it up and running again, ALWAYS remember to fill up the fuel tank to the tip top when you are finished with the tractor and will be parking it for any extended periods of time.

I can see this has turned into a MUCH more expensive proposition than you initially intended. Sorry to hear of so much trouble but if you follow the above procedures, hopefully you will not run into this problem again. Best of luck with the repair and be sure to get back to us and post your results and experiences so others can benefit from your experience.

__________________
John Deere 4410, 72" MMM, 430 loader, Land Pride 1558 Rotary Tiller, 1584 Landscaping Rake, & PD 25 Post Hole Digger, Modern Equipment 4" HD rotary cutter, 500 lb. pto spreader, John Deere F525

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer



tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

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