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bsogorka 08-07-2010 04:22 AM

massey ferguson 165 hydraulics
 
Hello, I am new to tractors and excited about buying my first tractor (massey ferguson 165 diesel.) I have a small lawn biz and bought this one owner, small town tractor from a town. It sat for 5 years without being used. I completely trust the town mechanic that it all worked. I got her running after some tinkering etc. she runs great, but none of the hydraulics move at all. the dipstick on the side of trans which I believe is hydrualic fluid is filled up and looks perfectly clean. The town mechanic says for sure the hydraulics worked and they used a bushog on it till the day it was retired. As I said it sat for 5 years unused. I engage pto and it spins but pull levers and nothing happens.. Maybe I just don't know what I am doing. I am mechanically inclinded but not familiar with this. the hydraulic arms etc. do not move at all.. ???:confused::confused:

tractor beam 08-07-2010 10:42 AM

Well first off, welcome to the forum! Do the hydraulics work if you engage the PTO? I know some tractors have the hydraulic pump running from the PTO. Also could be a clgged filter or kinked line in the siphon. Any leaks at all that you noticed?

bsogorka 08-10-2010 03:12 PM

Hello, thanks sir, the hydraulics do absolutely nothing even with pto engaged. I am checking oil with dipstick on right side (passenger side) of tractor and it is clean fluid and filled to crosshatch pattern on stick. Is there any other place to check fluid maybe on machine? There are no leaks that I really see and sitting on concrete for 2 weeks with no oil spills etc. ??

Thanks

bsogorka 08-10-2010 03:14 PM

owe, massey ferguson 165 diesel model tractor, early 1970's

Worzel 08-14-2010 10:28 PM

I seem to remember the 165 has a constantly running hydraulic pump - if so the PTO does not need to be engaged.
Is there a diverting/isolator valve on the top cover around the seat area? If there is it may be by-passing the oil away from the rear hitch arms.
If the tractors been sitting it could be a sticking valve in the pump - the pump is fairly easily accessed, so a repair should not be too costly.
Here is a link to a UK site selling a 165 pump repair kit - can't help with a US site but there must a kit available.
MF Hydraulic Pumps, Massey Ferguson Hydraulic Pumps | Buy Now at FarmingParts.com
By-the-way you will see there is a MkI and MkII MF165. If you will need to know which you have, see here http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/7/4/746-massey-ferguson-165.html
1965-67 = MkI. 1968 on = MkII
Hope this helps.
Bye
Worzel
I would love a 165 one day :)

docsteve 02-01-2011 09:29 PM

my 135 has that valve and it diverts oil to the front end loader . the rear arms will not work without switching the valve - located in front of the seat - on the top cover. Does it look like it had a loader on it before ? The valve is small (going by memory here) with a black knob ( at least it is on mine) , and the hose for the spool valve comes off of it .

westwood 02-25-2011 09:39 AM

on a 165 with multipower it is a bear to fix the pump the tractor needs to be split. I'll bet he does not have the levers correctly positioned. I had to replace my pump since it sat and the rings stuck and shattered (lucky staying in place) and the 3pt lift would not hold anything up after warm but it would still lift.

shona13 10-11-2011 09:07 AM

Hi bsogorka.
The massey 165 did not have Multi power the 168 did.
Any way check under the seat next to and behind your right knee when sitting on the tractor If fitted the selector valve which has been said directs the oil to either the three point linkage or the external hydraulics (Note not both at the same time either one or the other) like a loader or other hydraulic equipment .
If it does not have a selector valve With the engine running ,put the position control lever in the transport position and the draft lever in the up position and the hydraulics should lift to the transport position which is a little bit before all the way up, If nothing happens turn the engine of and remove the sideplate on the gearbox this is the one with the response lever on it the plate is next to your right heel when sitting on the tractor,five bolts and one countersunk head screw,it is best to remove the footplate bracket first and get it out of the way,take the bottom bolt out last then remove the cover and refit the bolt loose to stop the oil coming out.
With the engine stopped move the position lever up and down you should see the control lever moving back and forth,the lever operates the control valve via a small roller if you put your finger on the roller ,the roller and the lever should remain in contact at all times if you find that the lever moves back and the roller does not follow it this means that the control valve is sticking if it is try moving it back and forth with your finger and see if you can free it up failing this the pump will have to be removed to fix the control valve .
Every hydraulic pump on a massey I have been asked to refit for someone who has removed the pump themselves required either a new control lever or some other part.
For pump repairs may i suggest you use a trained Mechanic it may save you money in the long run as it is very easy to misdiagnose a problem .
Note:The hydraulic pump is constantly driven the only time it is not is when the pto clutch is operated that is when the clutch pedal is pushed all the way down.
I hope you find this information helpfull.
Regards
Hutch.

Bedford24 10-11-2011 10:27 AM

Your PTO Clutch could be messed up - The Hydraulic Pump runs off of the PTO side of the Clutch - if it were ever stuck and they kept running it it destroyed the Clutch/ or the splines on the shaft - to check - take plate with 4 bolts off under the clutch housing to see if it is turning - You can have the PTO turn and it still be messed up you won't know till you put the PTO under a Load -oil could be on the clutch disks etc... other than this it would then be the pump or even the lift cylinder rings under the Top Cover (under seat bolts to Differential Housing.)

shona13 10-12-2011 06:34 AM

G.Day bsogorka
Indeed as bedford 24 has said the hydraulic pump is driven via the pto clutch .it has also already been said that the pto turns when engaged this tells us that the pto clutch is driving the pump .
To test the integrity of the pto clutch IT IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE BEFORE YOU START THAT THE ENGINE STOP IS OUT THAT IS IN THE STOPPED POSITION AND KEPT THERE .
FIRST ENGAGE THE PTO WITH THE ENGINE STOPPED YOU MAY HAVE TO ROCK THE PTO SHAFT BY HAND TO ENGAGE, IT WILL BE ENGAGED WHEN YOU CANNOT TURN BY HAND GET A LARGE ADJUSTABLE SPANNER OR A STILSON AND PUT ON THE SPLINES OF THE PTO again make sure there is no chance of anyone starting the engine, with help get another person ADULT to fully depress the clutch that is press it all the way down to the floor and at the same time try to turn the pto shaft if the pto is properly adjusted the shaft will turn easily ,next let the clutch out that is take your foot of and again try to turn the pto it should not turn if this is the case you can safely say the pto clutch is good .
I f as suggested you take the inspection cover of the bottom of the bellhousing all you will see is the pto adjusting bolts and the release bearing ,you will not be able to see the pto driven plate ,.
The lift cylinder has three cast iron piston rings and they most often leak oil if when the hydraulics are working normally you would raise the three point linkage with an implement attached ,leave it raised and stop the engine watch the implement and see if it is slowly going down ,if it is the lift cylinder could be leaking oil . Remove the sideplate the one with the dipstick and the response lever on it get a mirror and torch and looking inside you should see oil dripping from the piston up top .
I modify the lift piston by removing it ,with the lift cover removed you will see a small allen grub screw holding the lift ram in place undo the grubscrew and the Donkeys **** will pull out, remove the piston ring farthest from the oil side of the piston and machine the piston ring grove .
The dimensions are .1875" Deep and . 281 " Wide this modified grove will accomodate a 3/16" SECTION " O"Ring,
you will notice that the grove is the same depth as the diameter of the "o" ring this reduces wear on the o ring and it will seal with the hydraulic pressure behind it.
Note the hydraulic pump can also bypass oil and cause the same symptoms ,when i overhaul a pump i modify the piston at the same time and i can say i am one of the very few massey Mechanics that can claim the hydraulics wont creep down overnight. Note when you have completed testing drop the hydraulics to the ground and make safe never leave any machine unattended with the hydraulics up.
Interesting discussion and no Malice intended it is great fun to communicate with others who have similar interests.
Again I hope this helps all who read .
Best regards See Ya
Hutrch.

Bedford24 10-12-2011 11:40 AM

Thanks shona13 - I forget to mention safety as sometimes we hope a person has that in mind - also if you need a repair manual that is detailed and can go along with what shona13 is saying here it is https://www.allpartsstore.com/ItemDetl.htm?B2BSessionID=111012030300127&CategorySeq=B&SelcBrand=MF&SelcMachn=TRACTOR&SelcModel=165&SelcSectn=SM&SelcSubsc=SM01&SearchItem=1&TextSearch=&ItemNumber=SMMF27 - alos this site is good source for parts shipped to you.

docsteve 11-07-2011 06:41 PM

shona13
You seem very qualified on these tractors . So tell me , can I install a 9 gpm oil pump ( for the multi-power ) that has a line that comes out of the left sidecover (factory stuff I see in the manual ) and run that for my front end loader and use the existing one for the three point hitch -and be able to run both at the same time ??? I realize this would mean splitting the tractor to install the pump . I want to run a snowblower on the rear and be able to use my front end loader at the same time .
My front end loader is terribly slow right now using the ( I believe ) 4 gpm pump . Could you supply me part numbers that I would need for the conversion ??? My Massey dealer wont even look for me . He says there was no kit , so it can't be done .
Docsteve

shona13 11-09-2011 07:20 AM

G,Day docsteve
Yes it is possible to fit the auxiliary hydraulic pump to the tractor But the pump is very expensive ,plus you need to buy the mounting bracket that fits on the main pump ,pipes to suit, special nuts to hold the pump to the support bracket ,long story short I would fit a utility type gear pump to the P.T.O You can buy them from hydraulic suppliers and they are not that expensive, depending on which type of loader you have fitted By that I mean the diameter of the lift rams ,Generally 10 GPM is about right.
Then all you have to do is fit the quick coupling to the pto.two hydraulic hoses one the suction hose can go onto one of the transmission drain plugs and the other to the front end loader control spool just make sure the spool has a releif valve fitted and a return hose from the control spool to the tapping point under the seat ,left hand side also you can tee in the main hydraulic pump to the loader via a selector valve which has been discussed before in other threads.the selector valve fits under the seat ,remove the hydraulic cap the one with the two bolts holding it down ,making sure you refit the standpipe back in the correct spot ,this will allow you to use the three point linkage as per normal plus give the loader a boost when needed.
the other plus is if the pto type hydraulic pump plays up two minutes and its of and a new one is on No splitting the tractor etc. This would be my advise.
P.S I forgot to ask what the weather is like up your way .
I hope this helps
Regards
Hutch.

docsteve 11-09-2011 03:01 PM

shona13
Hutch , and I could still use my pto to power my snowblower ??
docsteve
weather is still quite nice , igloos are firming up ( no, really going just below freezing most nights and about 40f in the day .)

Bedford24 11-09-2011 10:40 PM

Docsteve, I have seen these PTO Driven Pumps in various kits and even seen people use their drain/fill holes to tap the internal hydraulic (Diff/Tran Case) as the resovoir. The tractors of this period and your average tractor sold today (60HP and less) all have open center valve and pump systems as they are cheaper and the most these tractors will have to operate is the lift or loader which is cylinder operations not motor - the larger tractors have controllable closed center valve and pumps systems to operate Hydraulic Motors - to get the full power needed to power Hydraulic Constant Run motors like found on Skidsteer attachments like front mount snowthrowers requires a minimum 45HP... the 135 new is at 38HP, while your older and worn you can figure you have about 31HP.... Not having the correct Motor to Pump setup will cause excessive Heat and damage the pump or motor... during this era the tractors purchased for these type of equipment use such as by the Dept. of Trans. in many States used the larger tractors but had Engine "Parasite" Hydraulic Pumps and seperate Resoviors... Even today Alamo makes alot Hydraulically driven equipment for DOT and still mounts a seperate Pump/Resovior system so as not to damage the on board hydraulics of the tractor from the excessive heat created. What I am saying is you have alot to think about and alot of information a greedy Commissioned Sales Person at a Dealership might NOT tell you to sell you the snowthrower if it is Hydraulically driven. When I get a chance I will check your options at work and try to get you the most affordable and reasonable part numbers. More than likely if available it will be after market because the age of your machine - shona13 can correct me or add anything I left off.. on the using the tractor's resovior - not recomended due to the heat seen alot of trouble - some PTO Pump Systems (expensive) have mounting kits with feed through PTO shafts like the OverRun Clutches..... Hope this helps?

docsteve 11-10-2011 09:59 AM

I realize the gpm demands of a hydraulic snowblower ( way more than this tractor will provide - like 16gpm ) . I was wanting to set up a PTO driven snowblower on the rear , using the stock hydraulics to lift and lower the 3pt hitch , and use the aux hydraulics to run my front end loader .My loader has twin rams and is extremely slow with the stock 4gpm "furgeson internal pump " . I do not want to have to switch from front to rear hydraulics while cleaning the driveway .
I see in my manual that the 9gpm pump used for the powershift trans ( in a 165 )has a line that runs out through the pto control side cover ( on the left ) and is used for aux hydraulics . I thought this setup would be perfect as it would be twoice as fast on the front end loader as it is now. It would be a neat ,clean install .
I am an auto mech and would have no problem splitting the tractor myself and installing . I see these 9gpm pumps going for about 400.00 . I'm a fussy old guy and don't care if I spend a thousand dollars to make a nice clean system.
docsteve

shona13 11-10-2011 08:14 PM

Hi Docsteve.
Now that we know a wee bit more ,Let me carry the story on .
If your snowblower is pto driven and you have a standard 6 or 8 speed transmission ,the snowblower like all other p.t.o. driven implements will operate as normal that is ,using the three point linkage controls (Position control) in this case, the pto will rotate as long as the pto clutch is engaged and the three point linkage will operate , as you know all will stop when you push the clutch pedal all the way down to disengage the pto, as will the front end loader ,it will stop lifting.
To fit an auxiliary hydraulic pump the factory one is a dual element pump that is it is two gear pumps bolted together one for multi power and one for aux hydraulics.
To fit the auxilliary pump to a non multipower tractor you will require as I have said a pump mounting bracket assembly with the drive gears inside the pump and the pipes including the sealing washers that take the hydraulic pipes through the pto side plate, you will also require the pto sideplate with the holes for the hydraulic pipes to go through, also the transmission spacer to accomodate the aux pump,gaskets to suit ,longer shafts etc .
In my last post I did not go into that much detail as I thought that would have been enough information to help in deciding what you could do.
There are two ways to skin this cat ,one would be to either buy a wrecked multi power tractor and rob the parts you need and sell the rest to recoup the cost of the wreck bearing in mind that the aux pump is aluminium and could most likely be worn out.
Or look around for a good tractor with multipower and swap or sell.
You can still add a Selector valve under the seat to boost your front end loader performance,see other threads .
I have not experienced the hydraulic oil over heating on a Massey The fact that the gearbox holds 6gallons may help in keeping the oil cool.
At the moment I am restoring a Massey 178 Multi Power with a massey front end loader and a home made seven foot wide scrub clearing rake ,the owner has cleared most of his property with this outfit and when I checked the hydraulics they were in reasonable condition for having done 4000Hours,They will of course be overhauled as the tractor is being brought back to as new condition .
I wont bother to go looking for part numbers because I know that most of them are obsolete here in Western Australia.
If you like go into ebay and hunt for a good spare parts munual this may help in your quest.
I hope this information helps yourself and other members .
Good luck .
See Ya
Hutch.

Bedford24 11-10-2011 09:02 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hope this helps. If you need any info shona13 let me know too.. the attached are the hydraulic parts shona13 is referring to. AGCO owns Sparex and any Massey Ferguson Dealer can order these parts. AGCO has bought a couple of companies they have licensed to continue manufacturing parts for them. I am glad to say they probably have the oldest tractor lines parts are still available for having work for John Deere and now with Massey Ferguson... If you need anything let me know.

shona13 11-10-2011 11:10 PM

Hi Mr Bedford .
Thanks for the information Although I have Sparex access I dont have the list of parts available like the one you posted .
Nice work And Thanks Maybe I can go to the U.S.and buy parts over there.
Regards
Hutch.

docsteve 11-11-2011 01:03 PM

Thanks so much for this information . But now I have 20 more questions . Do you know what spline I would need ?? My tractor is a 1970 135 gas . I knew about the mounting bracket and such , but thought that it just mounted on the front of the furgeson pump , and the shaft went through the drive spline . Are you saying I need to move the ferg pump rearward , change the shaft to a longer one , and remount the furgeson pump ?? I also did'nt realize that the aux hyd pump was two pumps , one for multipower and the second for aux hydraulics . I should just get the multipower one then and use it for my aux ?? Do you know the actual GPM of these pumps ( the aux manual I have said 9 gpm for aux pump , but gave no info for the multipower side of it . Its great to see some highly knowlegable people here . I sure wasn't getting any help at the dealers .
Also , I kind of hi-jacked this thread - sorry .
steve


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