boatbrain

Hi,

I don't own a tractor, but I've got a boat with twin John Deere 6-404 engines. One of them is stuck, and, after pulling the injectors, we got it to move a little, I think maybe the problem is just condesation in the cylinders caused a ring of rust. The engines haven't been run in three years, and it's a wet environment, about 100% humidity all the time.

Now that the injectors are out, and there is some penetrating oil in the cylinders, maybe I should crank it over with the starter? Does any other reason the engine would be completely stuck, then, one day after penetrating oil applied, move a little bit, make any sense?

Also, how much oil do I need to put in a cylinder before the rings are covered? I ask because the tops of the pistions form a little sump, and I have to fill that before I the rings are getting any oil, plus being a boat, the engines are on about a 7deg slant. I sprayed about 1/2 can of PB blaster in each cylinder, but I am thinking maybe a cup per cylinder, maybe of Kroil oil, would be better.

Last question, if it does break free, is it going to run right afterwards? Because I worry the damage to the cylinders might bring the compression too low. Until the piston gets past the rust spots, not much compression is happening.

Well, that all, any ideas, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

Live Oak

boatbrain, welcome to Tractor Forum!
You pretty well hit all the right points. I would suggest leaving the injectors out and ensuring the engines turn over smoothly for several rotations prior to attempting a start. That would allow any excess water or oil you have sprayed into the cylinders to be expelled. If you try to start without doing this you run the rish of a hydraulic lock and/or bending a connecting rod or worse. If you have not already, do yourself and the engines a BIG favor and replace ALL the oil and filters. (fuel filters included, VERY cheap insurance) Under NO circumstances us either to assist the start. If you must use a starting fluid aid, use WD-40 or similar fluid.

Is the boat in or out of the water and are the engines fresh water or sea water cooled? If in the water allow the engines a very long warm up time about 100 -200 rpm above idle. (until they have reach FULL operating temp) During this time pay VERY close attention to the oil pressure, watch for leaks on the fuel injection lines, fuel filters, etc. and listen for any abnormal noises)

If the boat is out of the water you MUST hook up a source of cooling water to the sea water strainer intake. In some cases there is a fresh water engine flush provison hook up in the water strainer in the bilge compartment. If you have this provision, shut of the sea water intake valve and hook up the hose to the strainer. You may have to do some rigging up here but just make sure you have a good source of cooling water.

How old is the fuel in the boats fuel tanks??????? If the fuel is 3 years old. DO NOT USE IT. Pump or drain it out of the tanks and replace it with FRESH max dose fuel additive treated diesel fuel. The reason I say, not to use the fuel is the if it has been setting for 3 years, it has gone bad and will not burn properly if at all and more than likely has bio-contamination (diesel fuel algae bugs in it) This can reak havoc with your fuel filters, injection pump, and injectors. While you have the injectors pulled out, now is the time to verify that each fuel line is delivering a shot of fuel while you are cranking the engine over. This will also allow you to purge the 3 year old fuel from the fuel lines and pump. It will make a bit of a mess so lay some clean rags down to catch the fuel. This will also allow you to prime the fuel system after changing the fuel filters. Once you install the injectors turn the engines over again with injectors installed with the line connectors threaded up but loose to purge the air from the lines up to the injectors. Then snug them down. About 30 degrees wrench arc past solid contact. You may have to go back that retighten later if they seep.

You will have to play some of this by ear and work with the circumstances you have such as cramped space in the bilge, etc. Hopefully you can get both engines running, up to full operating temp., and observe them. There is probably gonna be a LOT of smoke, but once they have run for a few hours, that should settle down. I would again strongly recommend changing the oil, oil filters, and fuel filters after approximately 25 - 50 hours or sooner. During this time, keep a VERY CLOSE EYE on the condition of the oil. If you have a cracked head, block, or exhaust manifold water jacket, water may get into the oil. (looks like a vanilla milk shake when it is real bad and you will notice cream colored streaks on the dip stick) If this occurs DO NOT run the engine any longer until you have positively identified the source of the water contamination.

I am just trying to cover the full spectrum of possible scenario's for you. Not try to scare the hell out of you. Hopefully, the engines were properly preserved and they more than likely are just fine and will fire right up once you have freed the engines up and done the above steps.

Hope this was not TMI. Just wanted to try to help you avoid some expensive mistakes.

Good luck! Come back and let us know how things went. I would love to see some pictures of your boat and engine compartment! I have a 26' Sea Ray so I have a soft spot for boats too!

Live Oak

If forgot to ask if these were turbo charged or non-turbo charged 404's?

jodyand

boatbrain Welcome if yo have stuck pistons kroil works raelly good for that put it end let it sit and it will come lose. Its the best thing i have found that really works its a 100 times better then WD 40. Here is a link that tells about it.
Jody


http://www.kanolaboratories.com/

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Jody:usaflag:


Dodge
you drive the Rest I drive the Best.:driving: :tractorsm
1525 Cub Cadet
Snapper Comet

jodyand

Oh ya can you post pictures of them i didnt know JD made boat motors.
Jody

__________________
Jody:usaflag:


Dodge
you drive the Rest I drive the Best.:driving: :tractorsm
1525 Cub Cadet
Snapper Comet

Live Oak

John Deere makes some very good but very expensive marine engines. A friend of my father who builds boats powered one of his boats with a 220 horse John Deere engine. It cost him about $22,000.

John Deere Marine Engines

jodyand

Oh OK i was thinking outboards Well do they make them or does somebody else like Cat, Detroit or Cummings
Jody

__________________
Jody:usaflag:


Dodge
you drive the Rest I drive the Best.:driving: :tractorsm
1525 Cub Cadet
Snapper Comet

Live Oak

No, these are genuine John Deere engines. The 404's are now obsolete but still very good engines. They are inline 404 cubic inch diesels nearly the same as those used in the old 4020 John Deere tractors. The closets version of these engines on the market now are the 6068 series engines which are 414 cubic inches and of various power ratings.

Ingersoll444

First welcome boatbrain! Lots of boat people here.


As for the motor. Just a thought, but you may want to try to crank that motor by hand with the inj's out. Just afraid the starter may force something that can't move, and do more damage. Now for compression loss. If you free it up, the bad cyl[or cyls] may be a little lower, but may not be low enough to cause a problem. My advice, is load the cyls up with your lube of choice,and work the engine back, and forth by hand,[well wrench realy ] till it turns. MAKE SURE THE INJ's ARE OUT!! You don;t want to hydro lock that bad boy. Once you get it turning a few times by hand, do Chiefs list, soak more lube in the cyls, and then use the starter motor to turn it, and purge the old fuel out. Once the motor cranks a bit, it should spry most of the lube out of the cyl, then you can instal the injs, and give her a shot. Good luck, and I hope all works out fine. My bet is the fact that one day freed it a little, with a little time and work she will free, and run fine. So get out there and get those bad boys running. Summer is coming!!!

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Ingersoll224
Ingersoll444
Ford 8N
2 old Gravely L's

boatbrain

Thanks everybody for the help. I will try to get the scanner working and post some pictures of these engines. They are twins, so one is counterrotating, with different camshaft, and oil pump.

The engine got a little loose, but does not seem to be getting looser. I pulled the water exhaust box, where they mix the exhaust with water, to cool and quiet it down, and see where some water might have gotten into the back cylinder, but I can't understand it moving a little bit, then stopping. Maybe the starter or some other part has locked up? I will keep you posted, thanks again.

Live Oak

When you are moving the engine over a little bit; can you get it to go one way more or easier than the other? As Paul said, try to keep working it back and forth and see if it loosens up some. The back cylinder may be rusted heavily and hopefully that is what is holding things.

Would be VERY interesting to hear your story on how you came into this boat. Sounds to me like she is a haus if she has twin 404's! Will be looking forward to some pictures!

Ingersoll444

Ya, Thats a lot of motor. She is not no little fishing skiff thats for sure[or shore ]

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Ingersoll224
Ingersoll444
Ford 8N
2 old Gravely L's

boatbrain

Yes, it's a big boat, I think about 11 tons. I don't have pictures out, but it's a Grand Banks 36, if you look on www.yachtworld.com or maybe just do a google search, "Grand Banks 36" you'll have some idea what it looks like. It's fiberglass, but they made it look like an older wooden fishing boat outside.

I bought it from an auction when the owner went bankrupt, and could not pay for it any more. The Grand Banks people used mostly Lehman 6 cyl diesels, often only one, or John Deeres 6-404s, not turbocharged, for these boats. A guy with a boatyard near Seattle, who restores a lot of these boats, says the John Deeres are much better, easier to fix, and apparently last an incredible number of hours. Only problems are the counterrotating parts can no longer be bought, so, if you can not find them, you need to have them made.

Well, I put WD 40 in the cylinders, but I think I will suck it back out and put in Kroil. But it does not act like an engine stuck from rust, it makes a clunk if you turn it fast, and does not seem to be working any looser over time.

I am wondering, can the starter jam the engine, if the gears break? Also, the transmissions are Borg Warner Velvet Drives, and they say the dampener springs can break and jam the flywheel. And finally, someone told a story of an engine which got water in the oil, and froze up the oil pump.

Last question, there is some kind of tool to inspect the cylinders, you put it down the injector hole. Anybody know where to get one?

Live Oak

Sounds to me like you have pretty much stated the next step. Can you disconnect the drive linkage between the transmisson and engine and remove the starter without a major new undertaking? If the engine still does not turn free; it could be some other areas; none good. Although unlikely; the timing gear set or even worse a connecting rod (bent due to water injestion). Can you confirm if both engines were running prior to storage?

The device you refer to for looking inside the cylinder through the injector hole is called a borescope kit. These are VERY expensive and not practical tobuy, but you may be able to rent one.

If you cannot get the engine freed up after removal of the starter and drive linkage to transmission; it might be time to consider tear down for inspection and rebuild of the engine if salvagable.

Ingersoll444

Chief brings up a good point. Could the drive be locked up? Something with the gear box maybe?

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Ingersoll224
Ingersoll444
Ford 8N
2 old Gravely L's

Live Oak

Any progress to report yet? Check you PM's; I sent you a message.

Live Oak

boatbrain, it has been about 3 weeks since we last heard from you. Any news to report? Concerned and inquirying minds want to know. Hope you will visit back with us soon and bring us up todate on your progress.

Live Oak

boatbrain, it has been ages since we heard from you and boating season is in full swing. Sure would be interesting to hear your story on what progress you have made?