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Waldershrek · 11-15-2010, 05:03 PM

Looking for input on the ways to accomplish some floor and foundation repair on the parents former dairy barn. The barn itself is 30x64 (I think). One side is in great shape and needs no repairs. The other side has the silo as well as the drive in entrance to the hay loft on it and over the years hay, silage, dirt and everything else has fallen up against the foundation which I suspect is keeping a lot of water around the foundation which then freezes and thaws with our lovely weather here in NY. The whole foundation on that side isn't bad but I believe about 1/4 to 1/2 will have to be replaced. Also the floor on that side of the barn is breaking up.

My plan to fix it is this.....dig out around the foundation and remove all the crap that been built up, dig a trench and lay pipe for drainage. Smash out the foundation and replace it with cinder blocks. Then break up all the loose concrete on the floor and pour over it with new concrete.

Is there any reason this won't work? I see the amish neighbors did just this as far as the foundation on one of the barns that was on a old farm they bought.

**tractor beam** · 11-15-2010, 05:42 PM

Pictures would really help, but yes, you're on the right path! You should have a footer under the C blocks and it would be wise to run rebar in it before you fill them with concrete. Need to be aware that if you use drain field perforated pipe, where hay or silage is present, it could interfere with the drain action as it plugs up the gravel and pipe. I always try to contour the land so that there is natual drainage first. Be sure to use green pressure treated wood where there is framing within 6 inches of the ground. Keep us up to date with photos!

Waldershrek · 11-15-2010, 06:32 PM

Yeah I'll try to get some photos taken so you can see exactly what I'm talking about. Run rebar inside the cinder blocks you're saying? I'm assuming there is a footer but I haven't got that far yet. The problem with natural drainage on that side is that everything runs downhill to that side of the barn. That's why originally I was thinking a perforated pipe along the foundation would be good to drain towards the rear of the barn and out into the pasture. I had planned on covering it with gravel, you think the hay chafe will still plug it?

**tractor beam** · 11-15-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waldershrek

Yeah I'll try to get some photos taken so you can see exactly what I'm talking about. Run rebar inside the cinder blocks you're saying? I'm assuming there is a footer but I haven't got that far yet. The problem with natural drainage on that side is that everything runs downhill to that side of the barn. That's why originally I was thinking a perforated pipe along the foundation would be good to drain towards the rear of the barn and out into the pasture. I had planned on covering it with gravel, you think the hay chafe will still plug it?

It would restrict the water flow through the gravel. I wasn't clear when I said natural drainage, I just meant I would attempt to contour the ground to form a bit of a ditch to divert water away from the foundation and towards the ends of the building. They also make drain curtain if you absolutely had to use the perforated pipe. Lastly, i would run rebar in your block, yes. eager to see some photos.

Waldershrek · 11-15-2010, 07:49 PM

Well this is my parents barn not mine. Dad has been saying he wants to get it fixed before it gets really bad so hopefully I can motivate him to get going. I figure since I want to use it I better help him. I'm gonna have to figure out how much concrete I will be needing for the floor. That might have to wait until spring. The bigger issue is the foundation.

**tractor beam** · 11-15-2010, 10:47 PM

Concrete around here is something on the order of $112 a yard plus cartage. When I poured the foundation on my addition in 2004, it was $65. Then there's the price of remesh..........

Waldershrek · 11-16-2010, 01:34 PM

Ok here are some pics of the damage. It is a little worse than the last time I looked. The foundation is worse and the barn appears to be leaning a little towards the good side.

You can see in this picture over the years the dirt and stuff has fallen against the side of the barn which is alot of the problem. You can also see the hay loft ramp.

In this picture I'm standing on the drive in entrance to the loft looking over the side you couldn't see in the other picture

You can see it has fallen in around the whole silo pit

This is walking in the front entrance of the barn. All the following pictures are of the right side of the aisle pretty much from the gutter to the right side wall is all bad.

You can see the concrete is all broke up. It's like this for pretty much the entire length of the barn on the right side.

You can also see here the deterioration of the foundation and sill on the right side

In this one you can see the foundation is deteriorated so much the sill is actually tipping I assume from the weight of the barn.

The floor got so bad under one of the support beams it actually fell out and we had to rig this until we figure out a permanent solution

You can see in this picture how much the foundation has broken. Look how far the sill is overhanging what is left. This is in the interior of the doorway that leads out to the silo pit:

There is also alot of wood rod on the outside where stuff has been laying against it for so long. This is at a doorway that goes out to the silo pit from inside the barn. Looking at it from the silo pit to the exterior right side of the doorway :

There is also this broken bean upstairs in the loft which I think we are going to box for a temporary fix and maybe get a new beam at some point down the road.

Waldershrek · 11-16-2010, 01:48 PM

So at this point I'm thinking rent a little excavator and pull and the crap away from the side of the barn to start. I don't think another winter of that stuff holding moisture and not draining properly is going to do anything to help us. It also appears a new foundation on the right side as well as sill replacement is going to be necessary.

I'm not entirely sure about the leaning. It's not leaning bad but it is noticeable if you are inside the barn downstairs looking down the length of the barn. It is leaning towards the left side of the barn which oddly enough is in great shape. I know the professional barn repair guys actually hook on the barn in a few spots along the leaning side and winch or pull it back straight but I'm no professional.

These are the cinder blocks I want for the new foundation:

Home Depot

I'd also demolish the ramp to the hay loft since that is breaking apart too and rebuild it with block as well once everything else is taken car of.

Waldershrek · 11-16-2010, 01:59 PM

My other question is if the whole right side foundation needs replacing how do we support the weight of the barn while at the same time knocking out the old foundation?

**tractor beam** · 11-16-2010, 07:38 PM

You've got a project ahead of you! You're on the right track with carefully removing the dirt pile down to grade. You need to do this project in sections of about 8 to 12 feet maximum. You need to buy an LVL say 12 inch high by 20 feet long and attach it horizontilly above the rotten sill plate and on the wall studs high enough to get some good purchase with some timberlock or equivilint, screws. This will hold the wall together enough to remove the foundation and rotten sill and rootten portions of your studs and or wall sheething. Be sure to cut the studs in your wall high enough to get rid of any rot, and cut the ends within the wall square. You can the put down a footer in that area you are working on at the moment. You need to stub some upright rebar in the footing pour within the wall line about every 16 inches with #4 bar. Be carefull to lay them out with a tape or story pole so that they land inside the holes of your C block. If you plan on pouring bond beams, and you really should, then these are the blocks you need, to allow horizontal rebar and bond beams for lateral strength.... 8 in. x 8 in. x 16 in. HW Gray Bond Beam Concrete Block - 088B0030100100 at The Home Depot. Be sure to stick the rebar out the end at least a foot in the direction of travel, so when you do the next section, you can tie bar on and continue and keep a good conection between your segments and the cold joints. Be sure to place J bolts at the top every 4 feet in your vertical bond beams. Then toss on your green treated sill plate, marry new studs along side the old studds down onto your bottom plate, then measure and cut 2Xs to go from the sill, along side the new studs you just put in, up to the square cuts you made in the old studs in the wall, to eleminate the rot. Cut them a bit tight so you need to drive them in with a bit of force. So now the old studs come down to where they were cut, and butt up against new material continueing down on to the sill, with new studs married along side them to mage a solid connection between the old and new studs. Am I being clear? Then nail off the wall sheathing. Be sure to pay attention to and settling of the wall and foundation when you rebuild those wall segments. Use a laser level or one of those water levels. It's a barn, so it don't need to be perfect. Anything within an inch is golden!

**tractor beam** · 11-16-2010, 07:46 PM

Here's the ledger lock screws for attaching LVL to the wall studs. I'd use about 5 per stud depending on the load above. Unsure of any hay being stored up above? I hope not!

**tractor beam** · 11-16-2010, 07:50 PM

LVLs are Laminated Venier Lumber.... Very stout and tough in case you need to do some jacking.

Waldershrek · 11-16-2010, 10:49 PM

Ok so here is my immediate priority list:

1. Get dirt away from side of barn and demolish loft entry ramp. I plan to clear about 6-8 feet away from the side of the barn (about a bucket width on the tractor)

2. Get blocks and new lumber for new sill

I ran into a problem when taking measurements for the height of the foundation. Between the floor being so broken and the foundation being so deteriorated as well as the current sill it was hard to tell where I should be measuring to exactly. How do I tell how high foundation is supposed to be?

I'm really debating on how far I should get into this mainly due to weather. This is not something I want to be in the middle of during winter especially trying lay block and use concrete. I'm thinking I might just try to get the dirt and stuff pulled away for the winter and then take care of the demo and construction during the spring.

**tractor beam** · 11-17-2010, 08:34 PM

The best way to establish correct elevation is to get one of those laser levals, or a water level, either are fairly cheap, and shoot an elevation mark on the good side and the bad side at each corner and breaks such as interior walls, then measure from those marks down to the foundation where it's still good, and figure out what the offset is for the other side. If you shot your marks to establish level, and it was, say, 34 1/4 from the marks to the foundation, then on the bad side, the foundation should be the same......34 1/4, but whatever the difference is, is much it has settled or risen. You can also use those same elevation marks to measure the top plate or floor off of the marks on either side. This'll give you a clue where things are and where they should be, and how far you need to go to get it there! Good idea to wait until spring on the CMU, but make sure that nothing heaves or sloughs off against the barn walls with things exposed to the weather and moisture.

rsmith335 · 11-17-2010, 09:54 PM

Just be carefull, don't get hurt, work smart

Waldershrek · 11-20-2010, 05:41 PM

Well I went down today to start digging to discover dad has their 30 foot camper upstairs in the hay loft.....fml

So I'm thinking that has to come out now because once I tear down the ramp to the loft they won't be able to get it out until this project is finished and who knows when that will be. Plus if we have to jack the barn up it would be easier without 8,000lbs of camper up there. Dad is insisting that the camper stay indoors for winter so I have to convince him that it will be fine outside with a tarp since we don't really have anywhere else to put it.

You'd think he'd be happy about getting free work out of me!

Waldershrek · 11-20-2010, 08:05 PM

What kind of jack should I be looking at? I originally was thinking of using a bottle jack to lift and then use those metal poles down the whole side the barn to support the weight of the barn. You think they are strong enough or should I be using timber of some sort? I don't know where I could set the bottle jack though to lift the barn off the foundation since the bottle jack is so.

Does anybody have any idea what a contractor would charge for just the jacking and foundation repair? I'm thinking maybe we'll just prep the side of the bran by removing all the debris, let them do the complicated work and then once it's set back down on it's new foundation we can jack hammer the floor inside and do that ourselves.

**tractor beam** · 11-20-2010, 08:38 PM

You're letting it overwhelm you partner! A contractor would charge a good amount. You need to do it in small sections as I outlined above. This is bogging you down, but it really is fairly easy, just labor intensive. What sort of weight is in the overhead? A small jack in the order of a 2-5 ton would easily lift your building in segments with relative safety, however, if you're lifting tons of hay or an 8,000 pound trailer, then you need something like this........

**tractor beam** · 11-20-2010, 08:44 PM

Sorry Waldershrek. Techical error. I'll take a picture of a few of my Simplex 70,000 LBS house jacks. These can be rented for very cheap too. I used to do barn and house leveling and foundation installations in my own business about 10 nyears ago. If I were in your area, I'd help you out for free, so long as you held a barbaque!

Waldershrek · 11-20-2010, 09:01 PM

Ha yeah well it is a little overwhelming.....especially when I pretty much have zero experience. My dad knows what he's doing and some other family that are contractors but this is pretty much my project and I don't know how much they'll be around to help me.

If I can talk my dad into moving that camper out of the loft there won't be anything up there. Just the weight of the barn itself. All the hay is in the other barn.

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