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Old 08-10-2013, 03:57 PM   #1
MarkBenjamin
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Jubilee Wiring

Hoping one of you experts can help me. I stripped all wiring (a real mess)and am rewiring. I"ve downloaded several diagrams from various sources and remain a little confused as to what I"m dealing with. I have a 12V battery so I"m assuming it"s been "converted" from a 6V system. Negative ground I think. I believe it still uses the three wire generator, not an alternator, but I"m not sure that"s possible?? There was no resistor coming from the coil so I"m guessing the coil is 12V. I"m understanding that there"s no "standard plan" but I"m hoping if you see the pictures I"m posting you can give me some tips or guide me to a diagram that will work.

I drove this tractor home a couple years ago when I bought it and actually put it to work a few times before I ran into troubles with engine, etc., and decided to rip into it. Attaching a few pictures of what I was working with. The charging system seemed to be OK so I know the cobbled mess of wiring somehow worked! I have a few diagrams and I'm posting the one I think is closest EXCEPT I don't see the wire from the coil... Never been really great with wiring so starting to get frustrated. Want to make her run after a complete engine rebuild before I put the sheet metal back on!



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Old 08-10-2013, 07:56 PM   #2
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Never saw the pictures!?!?



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Old 08-11-2013, 08:28 AM   #3
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Pictures

GRRR! Hate when that happens. Trying again!

dscn2330.jpg   dscn2331.jpg   dscn2333.jpg   dscn2334.jpg   dscn2336.jpg  

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Old 08-11-2013, 11:09 AM   #4
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I wonder if the generator has been converted to 12v? just because it has a 12v battery doesn't mean it been converted. I guess you'll find out once you get it running again.

Regardless, here are some drawings that may help. Even if you do have a 12 volt system, these 6 volt diagrams should at least help you figure out where you should have been to start with, then you can work at the 12 v conversion.

naaa.png

600-seriesa.png

Ps. did you polarized your regulator as it states on the box?
Pss. Looks like a fine restoration you have going there!

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Old 08-12-2013, 10:32 AM   #5
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Thanks Pogobill. It's been a two year project so far! The regulator is what came off it. I just cleaned it up. Would a guy have to re-polarize? I'm almost thinking that this was NEVER really converted to 12V. Could be someone just slapped a 12V battery in not knowing what they were doing. I'm posting the before pictures as well. I can't find anything on the coil or VR to indicate voltage. What would your best guess be?? Still 6V? Mostly anyway?!

100_9668.jpg   100_9758.jpg   100_9671.jpg   100_9753.jpg   100_9759.jpg  

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Old 08-12-2013, 06:03 PM   #6
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I'm thinking it's 6 volt by the look of that generator. Regardless, you have a great looking clean and sharp tractor there. And with the sheet metal all removed, you can really get a good handle on the wiring. If you can get it close to what it should have been, I'm sure you'll get lucky. If you are using the old parts, you shouldn't need to polarize your charging system. Finding the right colour wire is a pain, at least around here, but if you need a red wire with a black strip for instance, use a red wire and put a small wrap of black tape on it, or whatever. As long as you know what it means.
There should also be a small terminal block in the wiring somewhere so that you don't need to be jambing wires together off of the regulator like the pervious owner had. Makes for a cleaner and better wiring job. I bet there used to be one mounted in with those two screw holes just above your regulator!?!

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:51 AM   #7
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Thanks much! I have a terminal block ordered as I agree that I'd rather not have a bunch of wires tied together with wire nuts and duct tape! I think what happened is it had a partial conversion. The coil is reversed for 12V and I'll bet the VR is 12V also since it doesn't look original. I have some numbers off the generator that I'll post also. Forgot to bring with me... If the generator is 6V original I may just go back to 6V system. I'm trying to keep it as original as possible anyway!

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Old 08-23-2013, 11:55 AM   #8
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Check with Google.com and a tractor spare parts internet site the voltage (6 or 12V) corresponding to the model NUMBERS of the Echlin voltage regulator, the coil as well as the 3 connections relay. No ADDED resistance in the circuit generally means a 6V system.

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Old 08-23-2013, 12:25 PM   #9
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Oh, yes a good idea to use a good and strong glass magnifier to decipher what's written on the parts. Dirt, paint, rust, etc. mask info. It is sure that there is some info to be extracted.

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Old 08-23-2013, 03:55 PM   #10
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The Echlin or 'Echlin built for NAPA'' voltage regulator could be a 12V. There is a model number engraved on the Back/bottom. You need to unscrew the regulator to look at it.

vr438-2-.jpg  
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:29 PM   #11
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NAPA / Echlin mammoth 2009 ignition & electrical systems illustrated parts guide/catalog:

1000 pages with all corresponding/ equivalent parts no index. Cross-reference obtained around page 860.
Dig-in !!

http://www.napaechlin.com/upload/NAPAEchlin2/Documents/ECH_NA141_HQr.pdf

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Old 08-23-2013, 05:44 PM   #12
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Here's a WILD guess possibility.

Everything converted to 12 volts (battery, ignition switch relay, voltage regulator, coil),
EXCEPT the NON-CONVERTED 6V generator.

System should work ''in practice'', but with REDUCED amps output. This means dim lighting, slow battery charging, etc.

Not sure about other effects, such as durability of 6V generator still there.

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Old 08-23-2013, 05:52 PM   #13
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For the high voltage coil, unscrew the red bracket and relook at it. There must be some info or number there that will tell us if 6V or 12V with or without internal resistor.

With 6V battery systems, ALL your spark plug wires should be copper. Rust on ALL important electrical connections should be brushed clean. Need that especially in colder weather.

Ideally with 6 volts systems you should also use lesser resistance COPPER spark plugs (Champion H10C or H12C), or Autolite Copper 4316. If non copper spark plugs are used, Autolite 437 (hotter) is preferable. Autolite 216 is the last resort, may be a too ''cold'' spark for 6 volts, but OK for 12 volts. I think NAPA A-526 is also a substitute, but not sure if copper tip or not. Champion 512 is the NEW number for the old H12C code.

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Old 08-24-2013, 01:07 PM   #14
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Coil resistances:

Reading across posts of a 12 volt coil should be about 2.5 to 3 ohms. A 6 volt coil is about 0.6 to 1.7 ohm. They make 2 types of 12 volt coils. One has a built-in resistor.

Finally, read this, my man. It should enable you to identify that ''sucker'...

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=rrtips&th=26558

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Old 08-26-2013, 07:18 AM   #15
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Everything converted to 12 volts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaz View Post
Here's a WILD guess possibility.

Everything converted to 12 volts (battery, ignition switch relay, voltage regulator, coil),
EXCEPT the 6V generator.

System should work ''in practice'', but with REDUCED amps output. This means dim lighting, slow battery charging, etc.

Not sure about other effects, such as durability of 6V generator still there.
I had a "55 ford PU, 6 volt. I had the generator converted to 12 volt using the 6 volt core. I used a 12v. regulator with a voltage reducer on everything (6v. ligts, gauges, horn, heater), but the 6v. starter. The 6v. starter lasted over 5 yrs. being cranked with 12v. The generator should be marked 6 or 12 volt. By the way several people used a 9v. battery on their 6v. systems in tractors and trucks.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:58 PM   #16
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LATE 8N and 53 Jub. FORD TRACTOR SIDE DISTRIBUTOR - 6 VOLT
Another diagram w.generator

late-8n-53-jub.-ford-tractor-side-distributor-6-volt.jpg   naa-electrical.jpg  
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:30 PM   #17
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Food for your thoughts:

Diagram for Ferguson TE or TEA20 tractor (1955) with 12V generator system. Just in case the NAA 6V generator was converted to a 12 volts, or simply they salvaged a 12V generator from an old Ford car or Ferguson TE or TEA 20 to replace the 6V. Either the Ferguson ''Lucas'' generator has only 2 terminals (different design), or they are missing 1 wire on diagram. The Ferguson 12V system seems name the parts differently: regulator becomes ''relay'' and starter Solenoid switch becomes ''start switch''. Ferguson may have an England engineering design.

te20-ferguson-12v-generator-system.jpg  
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:14 AM   #18
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NAPA (Echlin) part numbers to compare your VR and coil:

6 volts coil IC7 ($48)
6 volts coil IC7SB ($23)

6 volts voltage regulator

NAPA VR950 is the A Circuit 8N-10505C replacement for the late 8N tractors
The VR951 is the B Circuit FAG 10505A (or B) (Ford part no) for 1953-1964, 6 volts gas tractors
VR953 is the B Circuit CONF 10505A for 1958 -1965 12 volts Diesel Tractors

12 volts coil, no resistor needed: IC14SB

(The ''looks'' of the regulator may have changed compared to YOUR part...)
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Voltage-Regulator/_/R-ECHVR950_0366204259
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Voltage-Regulator/_/R-ECHVR951_0366204295

Notice the engraved numbers on the bottom of the enlarged ''back view'' photos
If you can't identify the parts, bring them to NAPA counter and ask them (innocently) to do it for you...

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Old 08-28-2013, 02:10 PM   #19
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Starter solenoid switch identification

After looking at photos of your 3 ''new'' electrical parts, I suspect that they are ALL NAPA parts and ALL three 6V. Quite sure that you have a 6V circuit tractor.

NAA with 6V system requires Ford part number NCA11450A for solenoid relay switch.

If NAPA, your solenoid should have numbers engraved on the back of the bracket (side attached to tractor casting).

I have found in the NAPA catalog the following 3 poles, 6V solenoids (enlarge the photo showing the back of the bracket to read the numbers).

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Starter-Solenoid-Switch/_/R-ECHST53_0306551755
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Starter-Solenoid-Switch/_/R-ECHST62_0306543419
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Starter-Solenoid-Switch/_/R-ECHST66_0366143268
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Starter-Solenoid-Switch/_/R-ECHST540_0366141715

Finally, the following two are 3 poles, 12 Volts solenoids:

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Starter-Solenoid-Switch/_/R-ECHST82_0362744811
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Starter-Solenoid-Switch/_/R-ECHST663_0306543459


Please reply to us once you have identified the parts.

start-switch-solenoid-napa.jpg  
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:45 AM   #20
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Jaz you're a wealth of information! Thanks very much and I'll let you know how I make out! I kinda goofed in painting the coil before I found/wrote down numbers. I checked the VR but will check it again as those seem to be the real questionable items. What troubles me is that it was negative grounded with a 12V battery and no coil resistor. Seems like something would have cooked that way if it was all still 6V except the battery...

Thanks again!



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